Author Topic: Na'vi Reference Grammar  (Read 19722 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #180 on: November 30, 2012, 06:11:15 pm »
Kosman! Oh by the way, ma wm.annis I credited you for creating this document, and updated the version and date on the Media page of LearnNavi. It was only since this update that I happened to notice that no author or version was there. :)

Irayo!  I didn't notice that loss of info in the conversion.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #181 on: November 30, 2012, 06:13:41 pm »
Looking at example in Conditions (6.19.5), should it be "Txo tsive’a ayngal keyeyit, rutxe oeru piveng", kefyak?

The form keyeyt is exactly what Karyu Pawl produced.  I don't mess with his usage. :)  But I agree there is still a little uncertainty around the declension of nouns ending in diphthongs.
Well, seeing as we have words such as lawk, snaytx, txewk, weyn, etc I figured that it's totally cool for a word or syllable to end in diphthong+consonant. I just know that it cannot end in consonant+consonant. Kefyak? :-\

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #182 on: November 30, 2012, 06:23:58 pm »
Looking at example in Conditions (6.19.5), should it be "Txo tsive’a ayngal keyeyit, rutxe oeru piveng", kefyak?

The form keyeyt is exactly what Karyu Pawl produced.  I don't mess with his usage. :)  But I agree there is still a little uncertainty around the declension of nouns ending in diphthongs.
Well, seeing as we have words such as lawk, snaytx, txewk, weyn, etc I figured that it's totally cool for a word or syllable to end in diphthong+consonant. I just know that it cannot end in consonant+consonant. Kefyak? :-\
But according Horen when syllable ends with diphthong, patientive case takes -ti or -it, not -t.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Plumps

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #183 on: November 30, 2012, 06:27:08 pm »
That’s the whole problem of the matter ;) But Pawl used it that way … and not only once ;)

Well, seeing as we have words such as lawk, snaytx, txewk, weyn, etc I figured that it's totally cool for a word or syllable to end in diphthong+consonant. I just know that it cannot end in consonant+consonant. Kefyak? :-\

Eyawr ;)

That’s how I see it as well … maybe the case ending table needs a little revision :-\

Ma William, thanks for the update. Actually, I’m reading through the new version right now ;D

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #184 on: November 30, 2012, 06:30:11 pm »
That’s how I see it as well … maybe the case ending table needs a little revision :-\

If you click through to the Wiki reference in 3.1.1, you see we have what Paul has said and then we have his actual practice. :)  I think we are safe saying that using the forms given in the Horen is not wrong.  But it's not the whole picture.

I do make a note of this in 3.1.1.5.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Plumps

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #185 on: November 30, 2012, 06:51:34 pm »
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for official rules and using the language according to them ;)

But we also know that preferences change, as you indicated.

I only remember that he used the -t after diphthong twice. In the example you give and here: Ke rolun oel kea aykeyeyt!

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #186 on: November 30, 2012, 07:11:29 pm »
Please don't tell me this will be one of those ONLY word X can do Y. All other words in the same structure or type do Z.

Eg "seiyi irayo but not *"seiyi anything_else" or "<eng> only can be used if the vowel after it is i."

Please no "Only aykeyey can be suffixed with the bare -t while all other words ending in diphthongs can only get -it"

I think it's perfectly logical that diphthong ending words are allowed to end in bare-consonant cases. As I said, we have several native examples of words ending in diphthong+consonant. Why would cases be different? ???  :-\

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Offline Tanri

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #187 on: December 01, 2012, 12:04:25 pm »
Tam, ma eylan :)

I see two possible ways out:
1) change the example to fit into the rules
2) change the rules (allow bare consonant cases after diphthongs)

However the second variant have a little glitch inside - p/t/k are unreleased at the end of the words. With regular vowels this is not a problem, because one can "shape" the final sound while still not releasing the p/t/k.
But how to verbally indicate the final p/t/k after diphthongs?
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #188 on: December 01, 2012, 12:16:14 pm »
p/t/k are unreleased at the end of the words. With regular vowels this is not a problem, because one can "shape" the final sound while still not releasing the p/t/k.
But how to verbally indicate the final p/t/k after diphthongs?

How do you say native root words like

Rawp, lawk <no word yet ends in -awt>
<no words yet end in -ay[t|p|k]>
Txewk <no words yet end in -ew[p|t]>
'eyt, meyp, eyk

How is it a problem? These words exist ending in diphthong followed by unreleased t/p/k just like any word ending in vowel followed by t/p/k

:-\

I vote for 2, but with secure confirmation.

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #189 on: December 01, 2012, 01:26:38 pm »
You got me, Tirea :D
I cannot treat p/t/k in these words as completely unreleased, have to say them. Very gently, almost as unreleased, but audibly.
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #190 on: December 01, 2012, 02:30:54 pm »
You got me, Tirea :D
I cannot treat p/t/k in these words as completely unreleased, have to say them. Very gently, almost as unreleased, but audibly.

When I'm conscious of the above stated rule, I don't have problem leaving them unreleased. But then again, sometimes my native accent creeps in and I do the exact same thing, say them ever so sightly. My native accent conveniently treats all t p k as unaspirated and unreleased except when they start a word.

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #191 on: June 02, 2013, 08:44:25 pm »
Updated to version 1.21.  Most of these are small changes, but the contrafactual conditions are the biggest thing.

* modal syntax of sto
* kxamlä example
* clarification on the declension of diphthongs
* ADJi-a N a-ADJi construction
* derived nouns in -nay
* free-choice indefinites with ketsran
* contrafactuals, zun, zel
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #192 on: June 03, 2013, 12:29:52 am »
Updated to version 1.21.  Most of these are small changes, but the contrafactual conditions are the biggest thing.

* modal syntax of sto
* kxamlä example
* clarification on the declension of diphthongs
* ADJi-a N a-ADJi construction
* derived nouns in -nay
* free-choice indefinites with ketsran
* contrafactuals, zun, zel

Excellent! So happy to see this still being updated, it's definitely my go to reference for those weird situations in Na'vi.

I noticed you didn't add anything about and it's various uses. Any reason why?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 12:40:06 am by Ftiafpi »

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #193 on: June 03, 2013, 03:36:24 am »
Irayo nìtxan, ma Wm. Annis. I, too am glad to see that you keep this up to date! Keep up the good work!

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #194 on: June 03, 2013, 08:11:42 am »
I noticed you didn't add anything about and it's various uses. Any reason why?

I went back on forth on whether or not that simply belonged in a good dictionary.  So I punted for now.  It does probably belong in the grammar.  I just need to think about the best place for it.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #195 on: June 03, 2013, 11:24:39 am »
Does it? :-\
Not sure about it… I’d also say it’s part of an example-heavy dictionary.

Great to see an update! :)

But what about the Gerund formation in 5.1.4.1 ???
That was cleared up here ;)

Do you have an entry for all adpositions? Otherwise, ftumfa is missing.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:30:45 am by Plumps »

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #196 on: June 03, 2013, 03:56:38 pm »
I noticed you didn't add anything about and it's various uses. Any reason why?

I went back on forth on whether or not that simply belonged in a good dictionary.  So I punted for now.  It does probably belong in the grammar.  I just need to think about the best place for it.

I went back and forth on it in my head as well. It definitely seems like a dictionary is the best place for it but it seems a mention of it in the grammar would not be out of place either. Is there perhaps a miscellaneous section that it could go under?

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #197 on: June 04, 2013, 08:30:10 am »
But what about the Gerund formation in 5.1.4.1 ???
That was cleared up here ;)

Do you have an entry for all adpositions? Otherwise, ftumfa is missing.

D'oh!  All of these will be in the next update.  Irayo.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #198 on: June 05, 2013, 09:20:05 am »
Does it? :-\
Not sure about it… I’d also say it’s part of an example-heavy dictionary.

There's always a tension in the Horen, between writing a reference grammar and writing a learning grammar.  I started writing it as a reference grammar, and it is still mostly that, but over time I pad out some sections to be more helpful to the less grammatically minded.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #199 on: June 05, 2013, 09:23:30 am »
There's always a tension in the Horen, between writing a reference grammar and writing a learning grammar.  I started writing it as a reference grammar, and it is still mostly that, but over time I pad out some sections to be more helpful to the less grammatically minded.

I was (and still am) very satisfied with what you draw up. I just assume that you have far more experience with how a grammar is structured, what belongs in it and what not ;)

Nìvingkap, another update on nì- + ordinals … that’s 4.2.1.1. in Horen. One less maroon text :P

 

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