Author Topic: Na'vi Reference Grammar  (Read 27898 times)

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #220 on: August 18, 2018, 09:45:30 am »
Section 5.1. Derivational Affixes is a bit strange. It states that the affixes are not freely productive unless stated but it is not CLEARLY indicated that some affix is productive (with the exception of 5.1.4.1.).

Also:

Wllìm Today at 10:28 AM
(unrelated: I think there is a typo in §5.1.2.3: it should be ke-YAWR and e-YAWR instead of key-AWR and ey-AWR, so the y should be underlined in the stress marking?)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 09:50:51 am by Vawmataw »
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #221 on: August 18, 2018, 11:40:23 am »
EDIT: After drafting this post, I think it is exactly what Vawmataw is talking about anyway. I guess it might serve as a clarification or "I agree" sort of post.

Section 5.1. Derivational Affixes is a bit strange. It states that the affixes are not freely productive unless stated but it is not CLEARLY indicated that some affix is productive (with the exception of 5.1.4.1.).

The first introductory paragraph of 5.1 indeed ends with this statement:
Quote
Unless otherwise stated, the affixes below are not freely productive

What that means is, None of them are, unless one of the following subsections declares one to be productive. I suppose what could be done is, for all the subsections that describe a fully productive or semi-productive affix, said subsection could include the word "productive" somehow as and where appropriate. For example,

Quote
5.1.2.3. The ke- prefix may be used with root adjectives and participles, in which case the accent
usually shifts to ke-, as in keteng different from teng same, equal and kerusey dead from rusey
living. However, note keyawr incorrect from eyawr correct.

Is this "may be used with" phrasing to say that it's "fully productive with root adjectives and participles"? or is it that we just see it non-productively used with these?

As noted, 5.1.4.1 already does explicitly specify "fully productive" in the manner suggested here:
Quote
5.1.4.1. Tì- ‹us› creates a gerund. It is fully productive for verb roots and compounds (si-construction
verbs, §5.3.3, cannot be made into a gerund). This is most useful when a simple tìderivation
already has an established meaning, as in rey live, tìrey life, but tìrusey living. In compounds,
tì- comes at the beginning of the word and ‹us› goes into the verbal element of the
compound, yomtìng becomes tìyomtusìng. See also §6.9.2. Forum (31/1/2013)

Quote
Also:

Wllìm Today at 10:28 AM
(unrelated: I think there is a typo in §5.1.2.3: it should be ke-YAWR and e-YAWR instead of key-AWR and ey-AWR, so the y should be underlined in the stress marking?)
Indeed. It's noted as such ([kɛ.'jawr]) in the Official Dictionary PDF

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #222 on: March 01, 2020, 07:38:35 pm »
Quote
6.20.7. Tsnì. The conjunction tsnì that introduces some kinds of report clause which cause the
verb to take the subjunctive, ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron I respectfully request the Dream
Hunt, sìlpey oe tsnì fìtìoeyktìng law livu ngaru set I hope that this explanation is clear to you now. F
The verb determines the subjunctive, or the construction?
Horen 6.20.7. is now incorrect.

See this comment by Karyu Pawl:
http://naviteri.org/2020/02/some-words-for-leap-year-day/comment-page-1/

Tsnì doesn't require the subjunctive:
Quote from: Le Karyu Pawl
With sìlpey, for example, you do use the subjunctive, because when you hope for something, you don’t know it’s true, only that it might come true. But when you’re pretending, you’re claiming that something is in fact true. For that you use the indicative (i.e., the form without -iv-).

There are now two verbs that don't require it, even with the presence of tsnì: leymfe' and la'um.
Quote from: Le Karyu Pawl
But when you’re pretending, you’re claiming that something is in fact true. For that you use the indicative (i.e., the form without -iv-).
To answer the question at the end (originally in maroon, we now have the indirect confirmation that the verb determines it.

Horen 6.8.5 is also impacted. The maroon text could be turned black because it's correct.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 05:21:43 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #223 on: March 05, 2020, 11:24:13 am »
Quote
6.20.7. Tsnì. The conjunction tsnì that introduces some kinds of report clause which cause the
verb to take the subjunctive, ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron I respectfully request the Dream
Hunt, sìlpey oe tsnì fìtìoeyktìng law livu ngaru set I hope that this explanation is clear to you now. F
The verb determines the subjunctive, or the construction?
Horen 6.20.7. is now incorrect.

I'm wondering.. what change should we make to that text?  :-\

Quote
Horen 6.8.5 is also impacted. The maroon text could be turned black because it's correct.

Easy fix. :)

EDIT: interestingly, there was supposed to be a 6.20.7.2 section which lists all the verbs known to take tsnì, but it has been commented out. not sure how long ago. Probably quite some time ago, because ätxäle si, rangal, and sìlpey were the only ones mentioned in the comment. What a shame, because this section, though it would require continual updates, it would be a very useful reference. o.o

Quote from: Horen Source Code
Code: (LaTeX) [Select]
%\subsubsection{} Verbs known to take \N{tsnì}: \N{ätxäle si},
%\N{rangal} (a marginal use), \N{sìlpey}.
% http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/confirmation-on-use-of-rangal/
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 11:28:46 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #224 on: March 05, 2020, 05:15:53 pm »
Quote
6.20.7. Tsnì. The conjunction tsnì that introduces some kinds of report clause which cause the
verb to take the subjunctive, ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron I respectfully request the Dream
Hunt, sìlpey oe tsnì fìtìoeyktìng law livu ngaru set I hope that this explanation is clear to you now. F
The verb determines the subjunctive, or the construction?
Horen 6.20.7. is now incorrect.

I'm wondering.. what change should we make to that text?  :-\
It's a good question. Maybe just The conjunction tsnì that introduces some kinds of report clause? :-\

EDIT: interestingly, there was supposed to be a 6.20.7.2 section which lists all the verbs known to take tsnì, but it has been commented out. not sure how long ago. Probably quite some time ago, because ätxäle si, rangal, and sìlpey were the only ones mentioned in the comment. What a shame, because this section, though it would require continual updates, it would be a very useful reference. o.o
Related to my comment above, this section could be more pertinent now that the subjunctive is edited out from the main section.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 07:14:56 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #225 on: January 01, 2021, 04:58:07 pm »
A long overdue update with a bunch of minor tweaks and updates, just in time for 2021!  You can get past the file caching by using this link to download it. Otherwise, it'll probably be a few hours before the usual link gets the new version.
  • many small style and formatting changes
  • more examples, citations, and some more indexes
  • a visual layout of the legal Na'vi syllable
  • full set of tsa- conjunction contractions
  • productivity of -yu with si-verbs
  • clarifications on omission of san or sìk
  • refinements on use of pum
  • numbers after zam
  • -tsim compound element
  • modals that take futa section redone (new rules on subjunctive)
  • sequential verbs with modal
  • syntax section for sno redone (but we are waiting on more detail from K Pawl on this)
  • dative in -ru with word-final glottal stop
I missed this until I had already produced the new version:

After discussion on Discord, Plumps, Kawnu, Tirea and I found out that a passage is missing in the Horen. The rule 5.1.1.2 doesn't mention that nì- is freely productive on adjectives. Here is the source of the rule:

Quote
Finally, some affixes are midway on the productivity scale. The adverb-former nì- is productive when used with adjectives: nìngay ‘truly,’ nìwin ‘fast,’ nìsti ‘angrily,’ nìftue ‘easily,’ etc. But it’s sometimes also used with other parts of speech—nìtut‘continually,’ nì’eyng ‘in response,’ nì’awtu‘alone’—and these words have to be learned as separate lexical items; you can’t take them as patterns on which to base new forms.
http://naviteri.org/2010/07/diminutives-conversational-expressions/

I've already incorporated this into the word creation chapter for the next version.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

 

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