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Na'vi Reference Grammar

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Vawmataw:
Section 5.1. Derivational Affixes is a bit strange. It states that the affixes are not freely productive unless stated but it is not CLEARLY indicated that some affix is productive (with the exception of 5.1.4.1.).

Also:

Wllìm Today at 10:28 AM
(unrelated: I think there is a typo in §5.1.2.3: it should be ke-YAWR and e-YAWR instead of key-AWR and ey-AWR, so the y should be underlined in the stress marking?)

Tirea Aean:
EDIT: After drafting this post, I think it is exactly what Vawmataw is talking about anyway. I guess it might serve as a clarification or "I agree" sort of post.


--- Quote from: Vawmataw on August 18, 2018, 09:45:30 am ---Section 5.1. Derivational Affixes is a bit strange. It states that the affixes are not freely productive unless stated but it is not CLEARLY indicated that some affix is productive (with the exception of 5.1.4.1.).

--- End quote ---

The first introductory paragraph of 5.1 indeed ends with this statement:

--- Quote ---Unless otherwise stated, the affixes below are not freely productive

--- End quote ---

What that means is, None of them are, unless one of the following subsections declares one to be productive. I suppose what could be done is, for all the subsections that describe a fully productive or semi-productive affix, said subsection could include the word "productive" somehow as and where appropriate. For example,


--- Quote ---5.1.2.3. The ke- prefix may be used with root adjectives and participles, in which case the accent
usually shifts to ke-, as in keteng different from teng same, equal and kerusey dead from rusey
living. However, note keyawr incorrect from eyawr correct.

--- End quote ---

Is this "may be used with" phrasing to say that it's "fully productive with root adjectives and participles"? or is it that we just see it non-productively used with these?

As noted, 5.1.4.1 already does explicitly specify "fully productive" in the manner suggested here:

--- Quote ---5.1.4.1. Tì- ‹us› creates a gerund. It is fully productive for verb roots and compounds (si-construction
verbs, §5.3.3, cannot be made into a gerund). This is most useful when a simple tìderivation
already has an established meaning, as in rey live, tìrey life, but tìrusey living. In compounds,
tì- comes at the beginning of the word and ‹us› goes into the verbal element of the
compound, yomtìng becomes tìyomtusìng. See also §6.9.2. Forum (31/1/2013)

--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---Also:

Wllìm Today at 10:28 AM
(unrelated: I think there is a typo in §5.1.2.3: it should be ke-YAWR and e-YAWR instead of key-AWR and ey-AWR, so the y should be underlined in the stress marking?)

--- End quote ---
Indeed. It's noted as such ([kɛ.'jawr]) in the Official Dictionary PDF

Vawmataw:

--- Quote ---6.20.7. Tsnì. The conjunction tsnì that introduces some kinds of report clause which cause the
verb to take the subjunctive, ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron I respectfully request the Dream
Hunt, sìlpey oe tsnì fìtìoeyktìng law livu ngaru set I hope that this explanation is clear to you now. F
The verb determines the subjunctive, or the construction?
--- End quote ---
Horen 6.20.7. is now incorrect.

See this comment by Karyu Pawl:
http://naviteri.org/2020/02/some-words-for-leap-year-day/comment-page-1/

Tsnì doesn't require the subjunctive:

--- Quote from: Le Karyu Pawl ---With sìlpey, for example, you do use the subjunctive, because when you hope for something, you don’t know it’s true, only that it might come true. But when you’re pretending, you’re claiming that something is in fact true. For that you use the indicative (i.e., the form without -iv-).
--- End quote ---

There are now two verbs that don't require it, even with the presence of tsnì: leymfe' and la'um.

--- Quote from: Le Karyu Pawl ---But when you’re pretending, you’re claiming that something is in fact true. For that you use the indicative (i.e., the form without -iv-).
--- End quote ---
To answer the question at the end (originally in maroon, we now have the indirect confirmation that the verb determines it.

Horen 6.8.5 is also impacted. The maroon text could be turned black because it's correct.

Tirea Aean:

--- Quote from: Vawmataw on March 01, 2020, 07:38:35 pm ---
--- Quote ---6.20.7. Tsnì. The conjunction tsnì that introduces some kinds of report clause which cause the
verb to take the subjunctive, ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron I respectfully request the Dream
Hunt, sìlpey oe tsnì fìtìoeyktìng law livu ngaru set I hope that this explanation is clear to you now. F
The verb determines the subjunctive, or the construction?
--- End quote ---
Horen 6.20.7. is now incorrect.
--- End quote ---

I'm wondering.. what change should we make to that text?  :-\


--- Quote ---Horen 6.8.5 is also impacted. The maroon text could be turned black because it's correct.

--- End quote ---

Easy fix. :)

EDIT: interestingly, there was supposed to be a 6.20.7.2 section which lists all the verbs known to take tsnì, but it has been commented out. not sure how long ago. Probably quite some time ago, because ätxäle si, rangal, and sìlpey were the only ones mentioned in the comment. What a shame, because this section, though it would require continual updates, it would be a very useful reference. o.o


--- Quote from: Horen Source Code ---
--- Code: (LaTeX) ---%\subsubsection{} Verbs known to take \N{tsnì}: \N{ätxäle si},
%\N{rangal} (a marginal use), \N{sìlpey}.
% http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/confirmation-on-use-of-rangal/
--- End code ---

--- End quote ---

Vawmataw:

--- Quote from: Tirea Aean on March 05, 2020, 11:24:13 am ---
--- Quote from: Vawmataw on March 01, 2020, 07:38:35 pm ---
--- Quote ---6.20.7. Tsnì. The conjunction tsnì that introduces some kinds of report clause which cause the
verb to take the subjunctive, ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron I respectfully request the Dream
Hunt, sìlpey oe tsnì fìtìoeyktìng law livu ngaru set I hope that this explanation is clear to you now. F
The verb determines the subjunctive, or the construction?
--- End quote ---
Horen 6.20.7. is now incorrect.
--- End quote ---

I'm wondering.. what change should we make to that text?  :-\

--- End quote ---
It's a good question. Maybe just The conjunction tsnì that introduces some kinds of report clause? :-\


--- Quote from: Tirea Aean on March 05, 2020, 11:24:13 am ---EDIT: interestingly, there was supposed to be a 6.20.7.2 section which lists all the verbs known to take tsnì, but it has been commented out. not sure how long ago. Probably quite some time ago, because ätxäle si, rangal, and sìlpey were the only ones mentioned in the comment. What a shame, because this section, though it would require continual updates, it would be a very useful reference. o.o

--- End quote ---
Related to my comment above, this section could be more pertinent now that the subjunctive is edited out from the main section.

Spoiler: IdeaTsnì Act 2020
2020 CHAPTER 1
An Act to amend certain provisions of the Horen leNa'vi regarding certain constructions using the relative pronoun tsnì.
[Date to be determined]
Be it enacted by Karyu Pawl's Most Excellent Wisdom by and with the advice and consent of the Members of the Na'vi-speaking community, in this present server and this present forum assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:

1   Correction of Horen leNa'vi 6.20.7
            Horen leNa'vi 6.20.7 is amended as follows :
     (1)   The following passage is withdrawn :
             which cause the verb to take the subjunctive
     (2)   The text in maroon at the end of the provision is withdrawn.
     (3)   After 6.20.7, insert a new subarticle:
            6.20.7.2 The following verbs, used with tsnì, require the subjunctive in the verb of the clause which tsnì introduces:
            [le list]

2   Update of Horen 6.8.5
     (1)   Horen leNa’vi 6.8.5 is amended by recolouring the maroon text in black.

3   Commencement and short title
     (1)   This Act comes into force on the day it is passed.
     (2)   This Act may be cited as the Tsnì Act 2020.

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