Author Topic: Na'vi Reference Grammar  (Read 21793 times)

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2010, 01:10:13 pm »
Kea tìkin, ma tigermind.

There is: here you go! English translation by our Payoang

Offline DutchNavi

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2010, 01:24:08 pm »
But totally within the phonological rules, as far as I know ;)
I assumed that in Na'vi ay (like ey, aw and ew) acts as a vowel so it is strange to have it before a pseudovowel (ll or rr) that requires a leading consonant.

Offline Muzer

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2010, 01:49:26 pm »
I assumed it can act as whatever seemed best in the sentence. So in ones with rr and ll, it would syllabify as pa-yll-txe, which is legal. In regular, fast speech, the difference is unnoticeable.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2010, 01:54:30 pm »
But totally within the phonological rules, as far as I know ;)
I assumed that in Na'vi ay (like ey, aw and ew) acts as a vowel so it is strange to have it before a pseudovowel (ll or rr) that requires a leading consonant.

I assumed it was syllabified in the same way as <ìy> and so split in the middle to get pa.yll.te. As Muzer says though, it's academic because in fluent speech there shouldn't be a noticeable difference.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
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Offline DutchNavi

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2010, 03:03:07 pm »
I assumed it was syllabified in the same way as <ìy> and so split in the middle to get pa.yll.te. As Muzer says though, it's academic because in fluent speech there shouldn't be a noticeable difference.

I think I understand now. The ‹ay› infix consist of the vowel a and the consonant y. It was the resemblance to the written ay vowel that was misleading to me.
I definitely have to practice the infixes more often. ::)

Thank you Plumps, Muzer and kewnya txamew'itan for your help.

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2010, 03:19:56 pm »
I don't think it's confirmed one way or the other, it's just that, it would bear more of a resemblance to <ìy> and follow the maximal onset principle (essentially that if something can go as part of the onset of a syllable rather than as the coda of the one before, it will) but that doesn't mean that it couldn't go the other way.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2010, 04:30:11 pm »
More of my mind on this:

Quote
2.1.1.1. True dentals? Alveolar?

(why should this matter for the plosives, nasal, and liquid/glide consonants, or even at all?)

Also, what is the rule for consonant clusters at the end (i.e. would a word such as kift be possible?)
Here I would suspect it is a part of illegal phonotactics, but nontheless I don't see it mentioned.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2010, 05:07:51 pm »
Quote
2.1.1.1. True dentals? Alveolar?

(why should this matter for the plosives, nasal, and liquid/glide consonants, or even at all?)

Dental and alveolar consonants are quite different sounds, even if most people don't speak languages that distinguish them (some languages do).  I suspect strongly Na'vi has alveolars, but if not I want to warn English speakers about how to pronounce dentals.

Quote
Also, what is the rule for consonant clusters at the end (i.e. would a word such as kift be possible?)
Here I would suspect it is a part of illegal phonotactics, but nontheless I don't see it mentioned.

It is forbidden.  I've added a note that there are no clusters allowed at the end of a syllable.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2010, 01:22:44 pm »
Noticed one thing:

Quote from: 3.1.1.1
After the vowels o and u the genitive is just , but after all other vowels it is -yä. So, tsulfätuä from tsulfätu, but Na’viyä from Na’vi and lì’fyayä from lì’fya.
Compare with this, from here:

Quote from: Frommer
After i, u, and o, it’s just ä, not yä.
But, in the Lemondrop article, we got Utral Aymokriyä.

Which assertion is the latest/most authoritative?

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2010, 01:35:16 pm »
Quote from: Frommer
After i, u, and o, it’s just ä, not yä.
But, in the Lemondrop article, we got Utral Aymokriyä.

Quote from here ;)

Quote from: Pawl
Bottom line: the genitive for bases ending in -i is -yä. Apologies for going back and forth on this.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2010, 01:41:02 pm »
Ah, I had a feeling this had been settled somewhere, but didn't find it. Irayo.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2010, 04:51:16 pm »
Updated to version 1.06.  Mostly small changes, but a terrible case error in 7.1.1 (on word order) was fixed.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2010, 04:44:31 pm »
One quick update before the big linguistic shindig, to 1.07.

Changes: note si-construction can be made also with adjs.; added -pin to word creation; notes about na with colors in orthography and syntax; numerous small updates and examples from Na’viteri “Getting to Know You” blog posts; sleyku with predicate adjectives.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2010, 07:34:18 pm »
Updated to 1.08, with everything from the Workshop finally worked in.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2010, 09:18:30 pm »
Txantsan ma William, irayo  :)
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2010, 04:34:45 pm »
Version 1.09 just uploaded.

The biggest change is that I now mark movie examples with a floating margin "A" (for "Avatar"), to match the floating "F" for Frommer.  There are enough of these we have confirmation on or are sure about now, and the film is the reason for the language, after all.

Other changes: causative reflexive; ta marking land of origin; genitive dislocation; clarify clipped genitive pronouns (ngey, pey, etc); duration with -o; nìftxan in sections on comparison, topical case and na.  Some of these are refinements that came from listening to recordings from portions of the Workshop I missed.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2010, 04:45:36 pm »

The biggest change is that I now mark movie examples with a floating margin "A" (for "Avatar"), to match the floating "F" for Frommer.  There are enough of these we have confirmation on or are sure about now, and the film is the reason for the language, after all.

This is a good move. Good on you, Annis.

Offline Plumps

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2010, 04:54:46 am »
Concerning 3.3.4: why do you give fra- as “all” and not “every”?
*fray- seems to me an unlikely combination … because ‘every thing,’ ‘every tree’ is eventually ‘all things’ and ‘all trees’. Or is there a grammatical rule here that I’m not aware of?

Also 2.1.6 (tiny typo) it’s MeM

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2010, 10:10:43 am »
Concerning 3.3.4: why do you give fra- as “all” and not “every”?

I've added "every" to the list of meanings.

Quote
*fray- seems to me an unlikely combination … because ‘every thing,’ ‘every tree’ is eventually ‘all things’ and ‘all trees’. Or is there a grammatical rule here that I’m not aware of?

The whole question of fra- interacts with number marking, as well as the adverb nìwotx, in complex semantic and pragmatic ways — ways which haven't really been explored yet.  While we can show "every dog" and "all dogs" are effectively equal in some systems of formal logic, the communicative effect is not the same.  Some languages distinguish collective plurals (everything taken together) from distributive plurals (a mass of things taken as individuals).  That Frommer uses nìwotx so often with plural pronouns suggests to me Na'vi is sensitive to that distinction, too.  That makes it possible, at least, that fra- could go with singular or plural nouns.  However... that text is in maroon for a reason.  :)

Quote
Also 2.1.6 (tiny typo) it’s MeM

Fixed.  These changes will appear in the next release.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Plumps

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Re: Na'vi Reference Grammar
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2010, 10:24:33 am »
The whole question of fra- interacts with number marking, as well as the adverb nìwotx, in complex semantic and pragmatic ways — ways which haven't really been explored yet.  While we can show "every dog" and "all dogs" are effectively equal in some systems of formal logic, the communicative effect is not the same.  Some languages distinguish collective plurals (everything taken together) from distributive plurals (a mass of things taken as individuals).  That Frommer uses nìwotx so often with plural pronouns suggests to me Na'vi is sensitive to that distinction, too.  That makes it possible, at least, that fra- could go with singular or plural nouns.  However... that text is in maroon for a reason.  :)

Alright, interesting… I had no idea. It’s always interesting to see how other languages treat certain aspects of grammar and … well, logic in this case. ;)
Thanks for the explanation … we’ll see how it turns out.

 

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