Author Topic: Our Pocket Guide  (Read 2084 times)

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Offline Karyu Amawey

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Our Pocket Guide
« on: February 13, 2010, 07:21:00 pm »
Kaltxì :)  Lately there have been some ideas floating around to keep the Pocket Guide updated.  Luckily, I have already updated it completely and it has been sent to Seabass to post up, so hopefully that will be soon.  However, I would very much like for everyone to contribute their ideas and comments on this topic so that I may be able to update this document as quickly and efficiently as possible.  Thanks to everyone for their help and patience!

Eywa ngahu :)
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Offline Swizaw Nguway

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 04:41:14 am »
Thanks for doing this mate, the pocket guide was way outdated and had a load of errors in it. Hopefully some newer people should learn better now it isnt messed up ^^

Offline Atanä mungeyu

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2010, 09:33:42 am »
could you tell me what changes you made, because i also have to update my dutch translation of it,
eywa ayngahu,
atanä mungeyu
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nederlandse pocket guide door mij en txura tirea.

Offline Will Txankamuse

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 01:50:45 pm »
very important to keep this guide up to date - for most people visiting the learnnavi.org website for info on the language, it's going to be the pocket guide they download and look at first, even though a lot of the more detailed information is contained in the forums.  It was certainly the first thing I read when I first visited.

Once the guide is back up on the site I'll go through it and check it for accuracy.

One suggestion perhaps would be to separate the dictionary, kept up to date by Taronyu from the guide (which is mostly about grammar), and then place a link to the dictionary on the homepage so people have access to all three main documents (guide, dictionary, worksheets) from there.

Most 'drive-by' visitors to learnnavi are not going to go beyond the homepage, so having a good set of stuff there for people to get all the info quickly would be good.

Will
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Offline roger

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 03:46:37 pm »
It still doesn't have some of the PN forms.

Offline meganbg

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2010, 04:23:25 pm »
Kaltxi si irayo, Karyu Amaway.

Great job so far... I check often for new updates.  It's great to see this document and try to build some understanding.

One suggestion... that you enclose 'v', 'n', etc in () to keep them separate from the words.  I've seen some errors creep in as those letters get accidently merged with the Na'vi... for example, navi->english "eywa ngahu" is okay, but the english->navi has it as "eywa ngahunt"

On the page on verbs, it describes hunt v hunted (taron v tolaron), but at the bottom of the page, it has hunted as "tamaron", so I'm confused as to which is correct.

I got confused by your usage of penultimate until I figured out that you meant the first syllable.  The problem is that penultimate means "second to last"... hence the confusion.

anyway, thanks so much for putting this together and keeping it up-to-date.  I look forward to all updates.

Irayo.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 11:28:13 am »
I got confused by your usage of penultimate until I figured out that you meant the first syllable.  The problem is that penultimate means "second to last"... hence the confusion.
And penultimate is the correct word there, not first.  The two infix positions are the penultimate and final syllables.  It's only the first if the word is 1 or 2 syllables.
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Offline roger

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2010, 02:47:42 pm »
Since no verb root has more than two syllables (perhaps another Polynesian-like element), and we have the complete list of verbs, penultimate is equivalent to initial. The two would only diverge if trisyllabic verb roots were introduced.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2010, 04:27:33 am »
That's not a rule..  For example, there's no reason that kllkulat couldn't be a root...  Most words are short it is true, but that's to be expected, esp of the early vocab which is likely to be common words.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2010, 09:43:58 am »
The Pocket Guide was once a great resource for beginners.  But over time it has drifted further and further away from what we know certainly about Na'vi.  Beginners using it are starting to be misled by the old information in the Guide.

I strongly urge the Pocket Guide be removed from the LearnNavi.org front page and downloads page until it gets a serious overhaul.  I think the Pocket Guide idea is still very useful, but the contents have to be updated.
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Offline Taronyu

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2010, 08:38:23 pm »
I think that the Pocket Guide, or a version of it, should be retained. I think that the point of this thread was so that we, the experts, or, more accurately, you, the experts (since my grammar is not good), could highlight what needs to be updated. Karyu is willing to edit the thing, but he doesn't have the time to research what needs to be changed on his own (unlike, apparently, me.) So: Wm.Annis, and others, what needs to be fixed? A link to wiki pages would be enough.

Thanks.

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2010, 01:39:34 am »
Ma wm.annis,

I humbly submit my guide Na'vi in a Nutshell as an additional reference material that could serve your purposes until the pocket guide can be updated.

Version 1.7 coming in a few days.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2010, 04:14:43 pm »
Karyu is willing to edit the thing, but he doesn't have the time to research what needs to be changed on his own (unlike, apparently, me.) So: Wm.Annis, and others, what needs to be fixed? A link to wiki pages would be enough.

Last night I was sort of puzzled by this request.  Now I'm just slightly incredulous.  If he doesn't have time to research it himself, why have him maintain the document at all?  Why not start something completely new, based on the existing frame Karyu has laid down and which people seem to like?
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 04:17:38 pm »
I agree, take what he has that's good and start from scratch. I'd say use the Na'vi in a Nutshell as a starting point. Make this a collaborative effort with (a few) editors for it. Until then I suggest we delete the guide from the front page and substitute "Na'vi in a Nutshell" for the time being.

Just my thoughts though.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2010, 04:23:03 pm »
I suppose I should say — what need are we trying to fill?  What is the audience?

I'm currently working on a very dense summary of Na'vi grammar — when complete it will fill no more than 4 pages (two if you can print double-sided), but is a reference, not teaching material.  NeotrekkerZ's document is more friendly to beginners, but is still more a graded reference than teaching material.  Except for the word list, it fills much the same role as Karyu's work.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2010, 05:12:05 pm »
Quote
NeotrekkerZ's document is more friendly to beginners, but is still more a graded reference than teaching material.

I have to admit to being slightly puzzled by this statement.  How else do you learn a language than through examples (both speaking and writing)?  Without an actual teacher and classroom to practice in everyday, that essentially reduces anything published/posted to a "teach yourself" program.  I modeled my document on karyu's pocket guide (since it was what I used to learn in the first place) and on a book I have Teach Yourself Icelandic.  Admittedly,

1.  I did not create exercises for beginners to do at the end of each chapter, but I provided what I felt to be enough examples for each idea, trying to anticipate the problems they were likely to encounter and addressing them as I went along.  I also provided the link to skxawng's worksheets and to Palulukan's activity book.

2.  I did not create accompanying audio, but I wrote it with as many words that we had pronunciation examples of (thanks to Ftiafpi and others) and included the links.

I think that if you want "teaching material" you're going to need to write out detailed dialogue scenarios with accompanying audio with people speaking at normal and slow speeds.

If anyone is interested in creating the audio for my guide, so that if the reader clicks on a word or phrase they can hear it pronounced I welcome the opportunity to work with you.  I don't have the equipment/know how to do that on my own.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2010, 05:25:36 pm »
Quote
NeotrekkerZ's document is more friendly to beginners, but is still more a graded reference than teaching material.

I have to admit to being slightly puzzled by this statement.

Why?  It's straightforward and true.  My point is not to suggest that your document isn't useful — it is — but to help us focus on what we're trying to accomplish with these things.  If we already have your document, why do we need to update Karyu's?  Especially if you were to tack on a vocab appendix.

Graded exercises — with a place to find known good answers — is probably the hugest need for beginners right now, but that's quite a different undertaking, and a pretty difficult one to do well.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2010, 05:52:00 pm »
I see you point, and paraphrasing Taronyu:  "I'm just saying, if anything I have is not good enough, I can adjust it."

Quote
Graded exercises — with a place to find known good answers — is probably the hugest need for beginners right now, but that's quite a different undertaking, and a pretty difficult one to do well.

Plus, if/when Karyu Pawl starts doing exercises on his blog, there would be no need for them.

Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2010, 06:01:45 pm »
Other things that would be useful is things like an appendix of frequently used Na'vi words, common phrases, and (the engineer inside my is screaming at this) pretty pictures and worksheets (not to replace skxawngs of course but rather a simple single problem with something like an upside-down answer at the bottom of the page).

Offline Tsam'Txur

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Re: Our Pocket Guide
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2010, 10:13:10 pm »
Other things that would be useful is things like an appendix of frequently used Na'vi words, common phrases, and (the engineer inside my is screaming at this) pretty pictures and worksheets (not to replace skxawngs of course but rather a simple single problem with something like an upside-down answer at the bottom of the page).

I second his idea. Small grammar work sheets and 'pretty pictures' would only make it better. Easier to remember. I also really like the idea of Frequently used Na'vi words, phrases, ect.
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