Author Topic: Somewhat detailed question  (Read 1629 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • us United States
  • Karma: 12
  • Rinoti Syt
    • Author Website
Somewhat detailed question
« on: November 12, 2014, 07:39:33 pm »
Just because it's late, my brain is fried, and I can't for the life of me remember if something like this has been asked before.  Therefore, I will ask again and be that guy.

Couldawouldashoulda question.  My specific sentence-in-question is the following:

"When I was a child, I would have given anything to know my real parents."

Aside from the fact that Na'vi do not seem to have words for the concepts of biological/foster/adopted/step/god- parents, mostly I am curious about the "would have given" bit.

Like I said, my brain is fried and I'm sure the answer is floating around here somewhere already.


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • us United States
  • Karma: 12
  • Rinoti Syt
    • Author Website
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 07:43:13 pm »
Hey, there's another thing to ask about while I'm on a sleep-deprived high and don't feel like opening a new thread.

Are there any expressions like the one I used above?

"For the life of me"
"For X's sake!"

And so on?


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9846
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2014, 07:59:54 pm »
Hmm... that sentence looks like a mixture of a krra-sentence and a zun/zel-sentence...
"When I was a child, I would have given anything to know my real parents."
My attempt
Zun oe limvu 'eveng, zel oel tilvìng fra'ut fte smivon (oer) oeyä sa'sem angay.
Lit.: If I was a child, I would give everything to know my true parents.
EDIT: I know, this seems not be fully correct...I still thinking about.

---
"For the life of me"
"For X's sake!"
Fpi sìrey oeyä
Fpi X

^
This one?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 08:33:32 am by Tìtstewan »

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • us United States
  • Karma: 12
  • Rinoti Syt
    • Author Website
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 08:17:15 pm »
I don't think it would be "zun" would it?  I mean, it's not /if/ I was a child, conditional, it is fixed past tense. (Would it matter if the sentiment is still somewhat present today?)
---
Wasn't sure if "for the life of me" was too idiomatic.
And second one was more referring to "Oh, for heaven's sake!" "For pity's sake!" and such.


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Vawmataw

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6187
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 100
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2014, 08:24:02 pm »
Krra oe lamu 'eveng, simvunu nìtxan fwa oer smon oeyä sa'sem angay.
I want to say: When I was a child, it would have been pleasing a lot this thing which is to be familiar to me my real parents.

Quote
oel tilvìng fra'ut fte smivon (oer) oeyä sa'sem angay.
Too Englishy. :) ;)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 08:33:50 pm by Vawmataw »
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News every weekend IN NA'VI ONLY
Omatikayan Memes Center

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • us United States
  • Karma: 12
  • Rinoti Syt
    • Author Website
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2014, 08:33:40 pm »
Quote
oel tilvìng fra'ut fte smivon (oer) oeyä sa'sem angay.
Too Englishy.

it would have been pleasing a lot this thing which is to be familiar to me my real parents.

Too wussy.  At least in my opinion.  Or would the Na'vi not understand the desperation that comes with abandonment (hence no bio/foster/step/ etc. relatives)?  I'm really trying to not be hostile towards you guys, but Na'vi seems to be a very emotional language and there is emotion to be conveyed here.


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Vawmataw

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6187
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 100
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2014, 08:40:32 pm »
Krra oe lamu 'eveng, simvunängu nìtxan fwa oer smon oeyä sa'sem angay.
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News every weekend IN NA'VI ONLY
Omatikayan Memes Center

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9846
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2014, 08:43:43 pm »
I don't think it would be "zun" would it?  I mean, it's not /if/ I was a child, conditional, it is fixed past tense. (Would it matter if the sentiment is still somewhat present today?)
I know. The thing that let burn my brain is the second part of the sentence.

When I was a child,
Krra oe lolu 'eveng,
^
I was going to write exactly this...

...I would have given anything to know my real parents.
...oe frakem silvi fte smivon (oer) oeyä sa'semit angay. lit.: I would have done all actions to know my true parents.
^
And this part sound really like a hypothetic statement that need zun/zel, that is why I'm not sure about...

Wasn't sure if "for the life of me" was too idiomatic.
And second one was more referring to "Oh, for heaven's sake!" "For pity's sake!" and such.
But, the definition of fpi is "for the sake of, for the benefit of".

Tawfpi! / Fpi saw!
For the sake of the sky!

Hmm, seems to be ok.

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • us United States
  • Karma: 12
  • Rinoti Syt
    • Author Website
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2014, 08:49:00 pm »
When I was a child,
Krra oe lolu 'eveng,
^
I was going to write exactly this...

...I would have given anything to know my real parents.
...oe kem silvi fra'ur fte smivon (oer) oeyä sa'semit angay. lit.: I would have done everything to know my true parents.
^
And this part sound really like a hypothetic statement that need zun/zel, that is why I'm not sure about...

But if krra oe lolu 'eveng is the set-up, does it need an if/then statement, or would it be something like an <iv> <ol> construct?

...oel fra'ut tilvìng... to be quite literal...
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 08:59:18 pm by Stranger Come Knocking »


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9846
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2014, 08:57:16 pm »
Hmm, I think for frakem si I used* yes.

...oel fra'ut tivolìng... to be quite literal...
<iv> and <ol> usually merges to <ilv>.

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • us United States
  • Karma: 12
  • Rinoti Syt
    • Author Website
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2014, 08:58:55 pm »
...oel fra'ut tivolìng... to be quite literal...
<iv> and <ol> usually merges to <ilv>.

I knew that. >_>


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6143
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 08:22:41 am »
Wasn't sure if "for the life of me" was too idiomatic.
And second one was more referring to "Oh, for heaven's sake!" "For pity's sake!" and such.
But, the definition of fpi is "for the sake of, for the benefit of".

Tawfpi! / Fpi saw!
For the sake of the sky!

Hmm, seems to be ok.

Grammatically, yes. But the meaning? I think “for heaven’s sake” has a religious background. As of right now, I would understand the Na’vi sentence quite literally and then I would go ??? what can you do “for the (sake of the) sky” ???

Concerning the sentence … wow, SCK, you really opened a mystery here. It is indeed a combination of time (when I was a child), and counterfacutal (I woud have given). It is said about zun … zel that they always appear together, so I wouldn’t use them here because the “when” part is clearly a krr a or a krr point. But I would stick with the structure of the counterfactual “then” clause.

Krr a oe larmu ’eveng, tilvìng/timvìng fra’ut a smon oer sa’sem angay.
When I was a child, (I) would-have-given everything to know (my) real parents.

I think that’s the closest we can get to that meaning at this point and I’m sure you would be understood (other then the very idiomatic sentences of “for the like of me” or “X’s sake” ;) )

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9846
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 08:48:51 am »
Grammatically, yes. But the meaning? I think “for heaven’s sake” has a religious background. As of right now, I would understand the Na’vi sentence quite literally and then I would go ??? what can you do “for the (sake of the) sky” ???
To be honest, I wasn't sure about this too, and I hoped that it could work as an interjection.
What would be the equivalence for "for heaven’s sake" in Na'vi?

Concerning the sentence … wow, SCK, you really opened a mystery here. It is indeed a combination of time (when I was a child), and counterfacutal (I woud have given).
Mllte ngahu!
It would be nice to include that mystery in doc for the next LEP cycle. :)

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • us United States
  • Karma: 12
  • Rinoti Syt
    • Author Website
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 08:51:27 am »
Concerning the sentence … wow, SCK, you really opened a mystery here.
You're welcome. *bows*

It is indeed a combination of time (when I was a child), and counterfactual (I would have given). It is said about zun … zel that they always appear together, so I wouldn’t use them here because the “when” part is clearly a krr a or a krr point. But I would stick with the structure of the counterfactual “then” clause.

Krr a oe larmu ’eveng, tilvìng/timvìng fra’ut a smon oer sa’sem angay.
When I was a child, (I) would-have-given everything to know (my) real parents.

Is there any fundamental difference between <ilv> and <imv> (both here and in general)?


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9846
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 08:54:07 am »
Is there any fundamental difference between <ilv> and <imv> (both here and in general)?
<ilv> = subjunctive + perfective
<imv> = subjunctive + past
Both are "technically" mean an action in the past (imv) or a completed (ilv) action.

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • us United States
  • Karma: 12
  • Rinoti Syt
    • Author Website
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 08:57:17 am »
Is there any fundamental difference between <ilv> and <imv> (both here and in general)?
<ilv> = subjunctive + perfective
<imv> = subjunctive + past

Not helpful. <_> Maybe my mistake is reading their descriptions in NiaN and not seeing the difference in the examples given.

Quote from: Plumps
Krr a oe larmu ’eveng,
When I was a child,

And using <arm> as opposed to just <am> gives the impression that it was/is an ongoing thing, not a single instance, yes?


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9846
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 09:19:10 am »
Beware the edits.
Krr a oe larmu ’eveng, tilvìng/timvìng fra’ut a smon oer sa’sem angay.
<arm> is an action in the past that is in progress (see the imperfective <er>). (I'm not quite sure why there is <er>? Ma Plumps?)
<ilv> contains <ol> just to avoid a repetition of the already mentioned time frame (that <am> in <arm>), but of course, one can repeat <am> again that result with the sunjunctive in <imv>. Both are correct.


-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 718
  • us United States
  • Karma: 12
  • Rinoti Syt
    • Author Website
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 09:22:28 am »
You should make "beware the edits" part of your signature. ;D I think you've used it in half the posts in this thread.


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9846
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 09:27:19 am »
I'm not the only one who did it. ;D Yeah, when I write about difficult topics, I often try to add things quickly I forgot or try to fix something fast. :)
You are reading replies fast!

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6143
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Somewhat detailed question
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 11:49:53 am »
I’m not sure whether I can explain this successfully… Thinking about it again, I’d now say…

     Krr a oe larmu ’eveng, tilvìng fra’ut a smon oer sa’sem angay.

just to avoid repeating the tense again.

There is still confusion about the use of tense+(im)perfective action and I would give almost anything for a detailed blog post about that from Karyu Pawl. ;) This is how I see it, other opinons may vary.

For me, ‹arm› respresents a time frame because, although it happened in the past, I’m sure the person who’s talking didn’t wish just for one time but over a period of a time or many times.
Within this time frame other actions can occur and that’s where ‹ol› comes into play.
iv› is again for wishing or in this case for counterfactual statements.

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi