Author Topic: Stacking modal verbs  (Read 1193 times)

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Stacking modal verbs
« on: September 10, 2014, 05:03:53 pm »
In a recent post, I tried a construction like this:

Tsaylì'uri, nga tsun fmi sivar faylì'u, meaning, 'As for those words, you can try these words'.

Is it valid to stack modal verbs like that?

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2014, 05:14:10 pm »
In a recent post, I tried a construction like this:

Tsaylì'uri, nga tsun fmivi sivar (faylì'ut), meaning, 'As for those words, you can try these words'.

Is it valid to stack modal verbs like that?

I don’t see any reason why that shouldn’t be valid. ;)
I couldn’t find an example, though.

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2014, 05:27:25 pm »
I would be careful with verb stacking. There was some dicsussions in the past, if I remember me correct...
I think this:
Tsaylì'uri nga tsun fmivi faylì'ut.
OR
Tsaylì'uri nga tsun fmivi sì sivar faylì'ut.

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2014, 05:45:28 pm »
+1 Plumps
Tìtstewan: Which discussions?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 05:51:07 pm by Vawmataw »

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2014, 06:10:36 pm »
Tìtstewan: Which discussions?
I generally careful with using unconfirmed stuff. That's why I used in my last example to be on the safe side. :)

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2014, 07:17:26 pm »
I just don't understand why it's safer to add in this case. Fmi is a modal verb and the rules for modal verbs apply.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 08:16:24 pm by Vawmataw »

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2014, 09:26:57 pm »
I think it's easy. Instead of ulte we can start a new sentence and the meaning would not change:

  Oe kolä ne na'rìng ulte tolaron ye'rìkit tsatsenge.Oe kolä ne na'rìng. Tolaron ye'rìkit tsatsenge.

But with it's impossible:

  fte tsivun pivlltxe sì tivìran nìayoengfte tsivun pivlltxe. Tivìran nìayoeng

The meaning changed. So in modal constructions and constructions with fte should be , not ulte. And maybe there are other similar situations where we should use with verbs...
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2014, 08:53:59 am »
’Eylan asked whether we can stack modal verbs. That has nothing to do with whatever dependent verb(s) come after that. ;)

Tsaylì'uri nga tsun fmivi faylì'ut.
OR
Tsaylì'uri nga tsun fmivi sì sivar faylì'ut.

These just mean different things:
(1) You can try to use these words.
(2) You can try and use these words.

Offline Tanri

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 02:21:24 pm »
 ;)
Awnga frakrr zene fmivi ngivop aylì’ukìngit nafì’u, txokefyaw ke rayun ftxey sa’u eaywr lu fuke.

Why not? If that particular verbs combination does make sense...
At least I don't know any reason why a controlled verb shouldn't be another modal verb.
Pivlltxe, perlltxe, parmlltxe...

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 03:45:06 pm »
In stacking modal verbs, would you want an <iv> infix in the second modal verb as well as the controlled verb?

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2014, 04:00:19 pm »
In stacking modal verbs, would you want an <iv> infix in the second modal verb as well as the controlled verb?
Of course yes - second modal verb is controlled verb of the first modal verb.

Quote
Tsaylì'uri nga tsun fmivi faylì'ut.
OR
Tsaylì'uri nga tsun fmivi sì sivar faylì'ut.
These sentences does not give me any sense - what does it mean "to try word"? IMHO correct is only "to try to use word"
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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2014, 09:27:00 pm »
Quote
Tsaylì'uri nga tsun fmivi faylì'ut.
OR
Tsaylì'uri nga tsun fmivi sì sivar faylì'ut.
These sentences does not give me any sense - what does it mean "to try word"? IMHO correct is only "to try to use word"
Yes, and no. The part "to use" is omitted by logic: ...can try [to use] these words :)

I'm the only one who see/think that tsun fmivi sivar is too english? :-\

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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2014, 03:15:28 am »
I'm the only one who see/think that tsun fmivi sivar is too english? :-\

I don't know how it is in German, but in Dutch "ik kan proberen om dat woord te gebruiken" (I can try to use that word / oe tsun fmivi sivar tsalì'ut) is fine. But I agree that to my ears the "gebruiken / use / sar" part is redundant...
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2014, 03:21:30 am »
I guess you can get too careless with clipped speech. While second nature in your native language, it is as problematic as idioms are in Naʼvi.

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2014, 08:18:09 am »
I don't know how it is in German, but in Dutch "ik kan proberen om dat woord te gebruiken" (I can try to use that word / oe tsun fmivi sivar tsalì'ut) is fine. But I agree that to my ears the "gebruiken / use / sar" part is redundant...
Germanic languages...
E: I can try to use that words.
N: Ik kan proberen om deze woorden te gebruiken.
D: Ich kann probieren/versuchen diese Wörter zu benutzen/gebrauchen.

But all three sentences are not "complete", one means following:

E: "I can try (the thing/action) in order to use these words"
N: "Ik kan proberen (het ding/de actie) om deze woorden te gebruiken"
D: "Ich kann (die Sache/Aktion) versuchen um diese Wörter zu benutzen"

Na'vi: Oe tsun fmivi fì'ut fte sivar faylì'ut.

(I hope my dutch is correct :S)

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2014, 10:25:15 am »
I don't know how it is in German, but in Dutch "ik kan proberen om dat woord te gebruiken" (I can try to use that word / oe tsun fmivi sivar tsalì'ut) is fine. But I agree that to my ears the "gebruiken / use / sar" part is redundant...
Germanic languages...
E: I can try to use that words.
N: Ik kan proberen om deze woorden te gebruiken.
D: Ich kann probieren/versuchen diese Wörter zu benutzen/gebrauchen.

But all three sentences are not "complete", one means following:

E: "I can try (the thing/action) in order to use these words"
N: "Ik kan proberen (het ding/de actie) om deze woorden te gebruiken"
D: "Ich kann (die Sache/Aktion) versuchen um diese Wörter zu benutzen"

Na'vi: Oe tsun fmivi fì'ut fte sivar faylì'ut.

I get what you mean … but by this logical, that would mean that all transitive modal verbs would have to apply this structure. If you’d just take “I try to use these words” you would arrive at … something I can’t even get my head around. The whole point of modal verbs is to circumvent such constructs. If you try, you try ~ oe fmi sivar faylì’ut. If you must try, then “try” takes on a double function, controlled verb and modal ~ oe zene fmivi sivar faylì’ut.

This logic is also flawed if you think about constructs with intransitive modals. Clearly the whole point is that you can’t use them as controlled. Even in English this doesn’t work, “I try/start to must/can” …

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2014, 11:11:40 am »
I think fmi sivar is an action and you could tsun/zene/new that: tsun fmivi sivar. I see no problems. But for example fmi zivene does not make any sense, imo.
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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2014, 12:17:44 pm »
I think fmi sivar is an action and you could tsun/zene/new that: tsun fmivi sivar. I see no problems. But for example fmi zivene does not make any sense, imo.
This. Here's point where word order is not free:
Oe zene fmivi fìkemit - ok
*Oe fmi zivene fìkemit - what???

Fmi can be use on its own, but zene not - it always must be followed by verb (as first is transitive, second intransitive)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 01:37:21 pm by Blue Elf »
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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2014, 01:20:30 pm »
Simple. In theory, you can infinitely stack modal verbs. Every verb after the first must contain <iv>. And it works as an extension of what we already know.

For ex:

Nga zene nivew kivan fmivi sivar faylì'ut.
You must want to intend to try to use these words.

Nothing wrong with this at all.

But as said earlier, some combinations of this don't make the most sense. But grammatically, theoretically, it would work, I think.

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2014, 01:59:41 pm »
I think fmi sivar is an action and you could tsun/zene/new that: tsun fmivi sivar. I see no problems. But for example fmi zivene does not make any sense, imo.
This. Here's point where word order is not free:
Oe zene fmivi fìkemit - ok
*Oe fmi zivene fìkemit - what???

Fmi can be use on its own, but zene not - it always must be followed by verb, IMO

Right. Fmi zivene kemit makes no sense:

fmi {zivene kemit} is illegal because zene is vim.
zene {fmivi kemit} is perfectly fine because fmi is vtrm.

It must end with the modal verb that is part of the clause at the end, or something.. You can't put a direct object with an intransitive verb.

In my earlier example:

Nga |zene <nivew {kivan [fmivi (sivar faylì'ut)]}>|.

All the way in at the deepest level, the transitive verb has its object. And as we zoom out, it just follows from our normal modal syntax, recursively. [ ] is the deepest level of modal syntax with in modal syntax.

MODALCEPTION.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 02:04:37 pm by Tirea Aean »

 

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