Author Topic: The Lexicon  (Read 3184 times)

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Offline Taronyu

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2009, 07:13:40 pm »
And again I have a couple of questions. According to the language log post the first position infixes are for tense, mood and aspect and the second position for affect (LAUD, PEJ). Now the second goes after the C that starts the second syllable. So what do you do with the verb lu (I just put the infixes one after the other l.iv.äng.u) and what happens when the second syllable starts with a glottal stop such as za'u? would I write zaya'eiu?

NOTE: I used "think alike" (nìtengfya fparmìl) instead of agree just to try out new ways to say things, to be creative, but it might not work.

You put them one after the other. livängu is correct, and counting the glottal stop as a consonant works. So, saya'eiu is also correct.

We have to speak poetically, you're right. Good use.

That may just well be the most clever joke that anyone has ever made re: the fantasy that is the Na'vi language. Kudos! Sìlronsem nìwotx nang!

Irayo, ma tsmukan. (tsmuke?)

Def. not good grammar, but the vulgar (cf: Latin "vulgate") register in almost every language drops virtually any and everything (or contracts) to come up with something that's phonologically and semantically "handy." Even Na'vi does it in the canon. "Eywa ngahu livu."

Oer'txoa is not attested anywhere except in my posts. I've probably used it 2 or 3 times. Others out there are also writing komum for "don't" know and the like. Please take it in that vein. (At least I had the orthography courtesy to stick in an apostrophe. Sheeeesh!)

Oeru txoa livu >>> Oeru txoa livu >>> Oer'txoa

Why this pronunciation and not another you inquisitively inquire...?

OE is the main morpheme in Oe.ru. It gets more pronunciation clout than -ru. The ejective brazenly heading up txoa is not going to back down. He's a tough guy, and HELL!, txoa is the star of the show! So here we are, mesmuk, hangin' out shootin' the ikran poo, (possibly we've had too much to drink?...) there's an air of enunciation bravado pervading the discourse and you're rather annoyed by the fact that I showed you up pretty pxasikkin' good in the pa'li jousting festivities of earlier in the afternoon. I just ain't gonna come up with "Oeru txoa livu" in that scenario. Say it out loud. Don't you hear that I feel bad, but don't want to make a big deal out of it? Syllable final -r is allowed in Na'vi, so it's kind of a no-brainer to me. ...txo OEyä eltu tìplltxeyä txele lu.  ;) I'll bet you two rounds of applause that 9 out of 10 drunken saronyu Na'viyä would catch my drift the very first time I said it (and that other guy has had too many shells full of whatever that stuff is we're drinkin'). ;)

Right. I understand deletion of the copula. I don't see how you're leniting that form. Where is that in the canon? I think you're assuming too much. I'm also not a drunken Na'vi. :D If you are going to use forms like that, explain them. It's not helpful not to. I'm not mad, by the way. I just was offended by how condescending your previous post sounded to me. 

Quote
Slä oeyä txe'lan ke nìhawng ftxavang lu, nga omum. Ftxavangìl moeru tìng ronsem-txepti, ulte txepìl ke'uti neu slä nì'ulti.

Oer'txoa, ma tsmuk, tìkenong oeyä:

Slä oeyä txe'lan KE nìhawng ftxavang lu futa nga ts-iv-un k'omum, srak? ftxavangìl?? moeru tìng ronsem-txepti, ulte txepìl to tì.nekx nì'ul ke'uti new.

Could you not know that (futa) my heart is NOT excessively passionate? Passion bestows a fire (to our) minds and fire wants nothing more than (to) to burn (LIT: "burning").

Where are you getting futa? I don't want to use komum, I don't think we have proof of ke being an olliding prefix. I didn't add tì to ftavang because I don't think that the verb "to passion"make sense, so I derived it as a noun. Check my dictionary. I don't see how my final clause isn't good.

(Nì.alaksì.l-us-u txana aylì'fu ngaru l-ei-u futa ke tsun tse'a ngal srak? Ma tsmuk!)

Where is -us- from? I need futa to understand, I think.

Frommer is using this spelling new for "want" recently. It's in the canon for "If you want to live, come with me." I believe that he must have spelled it "neu" for the script so that the actors wouldn't slip up an say the English word "new." BUT, if you're learning the language and conjugating/inflecting the verb yourself, you need to know that it's a one syllablle verb. Ngal oet n-ol-ei-ew. ("I'm glad that you wanted me.")

Alright. I edited my dictionary. This is great man. It's good to have a genuine challenge! :)

I don't see how the adverb nì'ul can take -ti. 'ulti pol ätxäle s-ol-i seems OK, though. ("He requested an increase.")

nì’ul: [nI."Pul] adj. more.

Tìtxantslusam Na'viyä ngengaru! (See. I remembered this time.)

PS: Did you smite me? I could swear that my karma is down by about 8% since yesterday.  ;)

Sure I did. But I applauded you today. :D

Kayemeie ye'rìn, ma sìltsana tsmukan!

Offline Prrton

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2009, 09:09:15 pm »


Quote
I just was offended by how condescending your previous post sounded to me.

I feel very badly that my post came across as condescending to you. Most sincere apologies. I forget that we don't really know each other and that "intellectual jousting" can be emotionally dangerous in this kind of medium that lends itself easily to misunderstanding and hurt feelings. Oeru txoa livu.  :'(

Quote
Irayo, ma tsmukan. (tsmuke?)

tutean

Quote
I understand deletion of the copula. I don't see how you're leniting that form. Where is that in the canon? I think you're assuming too much. I'm also not a drunken Na'vi.  If you are going to use forms like that, explain them. It's not helpful not to.

Muiä nìwotx! Ke srung si. It isn't/wasn't canonical lenition, but rather linguistic mischief.
Kayä a srrri nari sayi futa tìngay sivi oel.
<K-ay-ä a [ay]srr-ri nari s-ay-i futa tì.ngay sivi oel.>
"In the days that will come (I) will take care that I clarify."

Quote
Where are you getting futa?

From Dr. Frommer. "I didn't think that there was anyone..." The Wikipedia guys have done a theoretical gloss on the possible etymology.

Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na’vi set fìfya pivlltxe!
"I didn't think there was anyone who could speak Na’vi like that at this point!"
fì-’u-t=a >>>> futa

Quote
I don't want to use komum, I don't think we have proof of ke being an olliding prefix.

Totally cool and not confusing for anyone if you don't use it, but other people already are. One of the many pieces of cat fur out of the bag. I don't have a strong opinion about its evolution. But others might. Gird your loins and be prepared for them to do as they like. (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian ARE Latin. Latin just doesn't know it (or at least it would be unlikely to approve). It SHOULD be very proud, though. ;)

Quote
I didn't add tì to ftavang because I don't think that the verb "to passion"make sense, so I derived it as a noun. Check my dictionary.

Nìftxavang is in the dictionary at "passionately" >> ftxavang "passionate" >> which can be nominalized to tì.ftxavang "passion" (>> *ay.sì.ftxavang "passions" etc.) It seems that both verbs and adjectives can be nominalized by tì-. (cf: tì.ngay "truth" (from an adjective) vs. tì.kin "need" (from a verb))

Is this your dictionary?

Quote
Quote
Slä oeyä txe'lan ke nìhawng ftxavang lu, nga omum. Ftxavangìl moeru tìng ronsem-txepti, ulte txepìl ke'uti neu slä nì'ulti.
I don't see how my final clause isn't good.

I am operating under the assumption that anything beginning in nì- is an adverb. Clearly adverbs don't work the same way in Na'vi as they do in most languages (cf ...nì.Na'vi plltxe... ("...speak Na'vi-ish-ly..."), but there are many many examples of their working "normally" as they would in "everyday" IndoEuropean or even Japanese. So my logic follows: nì.'ul is an adverb and not a noun. I don't know how an adverb could take -ti as a case marking. (Perhaps I'm misinterpreting something.). But, you could suck off the nì- and replace it with tì- to change "increasingly" into "increasing" ((adjective) just for that fraction of a second) before it becomes "increase" ("an increase", a noun) with the additon of tì-. "More" is a very tricky and multi-talented word in English.




*'ul
*increasing/more
*adjective



nì.'ul
increasingly/more
adverb



tì.'ul
increase/more
noun




Quote
(Nì.alaksì.l-us-u txana aylì'fu ngaru l-ei-u futa ke tsun tse'a ngal srak? Ma tsmuk!)
Where is -us- from? I need futa to understand, I think.

The verbal infix -us- is from kér-us-ey and txantsl-us-am and very nicely written up again by the Wikipedia crew.

Quote
I applauded you today.

IRAYO!, ma tsmuk. I applaud you back.

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Offline Tengfya swizaw

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2009, 09:31:06 pm »
Once again, Prrton, I am in awe of your eloquence and ability to hypothesize about unknown regions of the Na'vi language. Regardless of whether or not you will end up being in error about a lot of this, your walls of text have consistently caused me to stay up late googling what half of the terms you employ mean. Your relative fluency in the Na'vi language causes me to stay up even later translating what you say. Also, I hope the above doesn't appear like blatantly flattery.

In a nutshell, I applauded you.


Here's to not knowing exactly what you're saying and having fun with it.

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Offline Taronyu

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2009, 09:31:53 pm »
Quote
I just was offended by how condescending your previous post sounded to me.

I feel very badly that my post came across as condescending to you. Most sincere apologies. I forget that we don't really know each other and that "intellectual jousting" can be emotionally dangerous in this kind of medium that lends itself easily to misunderstanding and hurt feelings. Oeru txoa livu.  :'(

We need a phrase for "don't worry" and for "no problem." Any ideas, ma täftxuyu lì'uyä? Jousting is cool, just that was your first post to me and I wasn't prepared for it. I will be in the future, ma smukan.

Quote
I understand deletion of the copula. I don't see how you're leniting that form. Where is that in the canon? I think you're assuming too much. I'm also not a drunken Na'vi.  If you are going to use forms like that, explain them. It's not helpful not to.

Muiä nìwotx! Ke srung si. It isn't/wasn't canonical lenition, but rather linguistic mischief.
Kayä a srrri nari sayi futa tìngay sivi oel.
<K-ay-ä a [ay]srr-ri nari s-ay-i futa tì.ngay sivi oel.>
"In the days that will come (I) will take care that I clarify."

Ah, the linguistic mischief.: :P Right. Just wondering where srr is from? Irayo, ma sìlronsem smukan.

I should have guess about futa. That's a very, very useful word.

Quote
I didn't add tì to ftavang because I don't think that the verb "to passion"make sense, so I derived it as a noun. Check my dictionary.

Nìftxavang is in the dictionary at "passionately" >> ftxavang "passionate" >> which can be nominalized to tì.ftxavang "passion" (>> *ay.sì.ftxavang "passions" etc.) It seems that both verbs and adjectives can be nominalized by tì-. (cf: tì.ngay "truth" (from an adjective) vs. tì.kin "need" (from a verb))

Is this your dictionary?

I'm thinking about erasing p.o.s. for each word I derive. It might be better. Yes, nominalizing it makes sense, especially as it is abstract. And deriving it as an adjective makes more sense. No, this is.

You make a valid point about nì'ul. My guess is that I noticed this and forget to edit the word (or didn't), because I shouldn't have done that.

I now understand <us> as well - I checked the wiki yesterday.

Irayo fpi ayfìlì'u....

PS. Why don't I ever get posts like ". :P

Offline Prrton

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2010, 01:26:12 am »
Once again, Prrton, I am in awe of your eloquence and ability to hypothesize about unknown regions of the Na'vi language.... I hope the above doesn't appear like blatantly flattery.

Blatant or not, ma Tengfya Swizaw, I am flattered and very pleased that the time I've spent writing (engaging) here is intellectually stimulating to you. I learned watching the movie (perhaps relearned) that "imagination" (ronsemäie??) is the key ingredient that defines my world view on the meaning of human existence and these fora combine to form a unique venue to keep our imaginations alive, certainly mine.

Ke tsranten txele a mì tìngaylusu kifkeyyä oengyä tsapa'liri a nusekx sì tusìran ka na'ring ne lawa tìterkup poyä mì Unil Eywayä ke lu ngay. Oeri tsaäie ngay mì ronsem lu ulte ha txana skxe mì txe'lan ngay längu. Ronsemäie sì tìngaylusu oeyä oeru lu nì'aw ulte txo ke mllte oe, kepol tsiveiun latem tsat.

Ke tsranten txele a mì tì.ngay.l-us-u kifkey.yä oeng.yä tsa.pa'li.ri a n-us-ekx sì t-us-ìran ka na'ring ne law.a tì.terkup poyä mì Unil Eywa.yä ke lu ngay. Oe.ri tsa.äie ngay mì ronsem lu ulte ha txan.a [ay][t]skxe mì txe'lan ngay l-än-gu. Ronsem.äie sì tì.ngay.l-us-u oeyä oe.ru lu nì'aw ulte txo ke mllte oe, ke.pol ts-iv-ei-un latem tsat.

It doesn't matter that the direhorse running on fire through the forest to his certain death in the Dream of Eywa ("Avatar") is not "real" in the reality of your and my physical world. That vision is real in my mind and thus the stones (metaphor for sadness) in my heart are sadly legion.  My imagination and reality are mine and mine alone. Happily, no one can change that.

 :)

Zìsìtyä sngä'ikrr alefpom ngaru liveiu!

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« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 01:48:12 pm by Prrton »

Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2010, 03:34:31 am »
I'm no where near ready enough to be poking my head into the intermediate board but I was curious and thought I'd put my two cents in.

From what I've read Frommer is continuously working on the language. Also we have to take Cameron's ego into consideration. He wants Na'vi to "out Klingon Klingon," meaning he wants this to be the number one language among the us wonderful nerds. I think this means he is willing to put a lot of money into making it a well fleshed out language. Now that it's obvious that the movie was a success I have little doubt that a more detailed book is in the works and it is probably best that we wait before making up to many words. At the very least we shouldn't invent any until we have contact with Frommer. We don't want to become an isolated forum with its own vocab separated from the standard Na'Vi.

Basically I think we all need a little patience. I know I wanted to go out and buy every book with Na'Vi on the cover the second I was out of the film, but we must remember how new it is. Give it a months time and see where we are at.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Offline Fyawìntxu

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2010, 11:03:10 am »
     kaltxì ma smuktu! oel ngati kameie!

     I agree with Prrton... don't forget that Na'vi language is supposed to be the language of Na'vi people... if you wanna change it into English, French, Japanese or whatever we already have on Earth... I think you should just directly learn these human languages.

     Na'vi is not saying "hi", it's saying "kaltxì ma smuk", it's not saying "bye", it's saying "Eywa ngahu".

     As Grace says in Avatar: "you gotta see through Neytiri's eyes", I would say you gotta speak with Na'vi people voice, and think with Na'vi people mind.

     Here and only here "Eywa" takes sense. Can you picture Na'vi without Eywa? If yes... forget even about the word "Na'vi".

     There are no airplane on Pandora, how would Na'vi call that? Why not some kind of "metal bird"? We can't copy/paste our human language rules. Na'vi has its own rules, respectfully to Dr Frommer's work.

     I'm not too advanced yet in learning and speaking... but I see some people here able to say almost whatever they want. When they don't have the exact translation, they find a way to say anyway. And waiting for Dr Frommer's opinion and new infos about Na'vi, I think this is the best way to do. At least we don't invent anything wrong, and we're not against Dr Frommer's work.

     I believe he made more than what he just allowed us to see, because busy at the moment with the movie release, because of Xmas time and New Year time... he couldn't spend that much time with us who discovered Na'vi very few weeks ago...
     Don't forget that the actors signed for a trilogy... and maybe (I said maybe!!!) giving us some vocabulary prepared for another movie could reveal us what's going on in next movie... and if so, pretty sure the producers don't want that... believe me, Dr Frommer must be carrefull about what he says. But again this is supposition.

     Hopefully Dr Frommer will have time to come around here and help us.

     Eywa ngahu ma smuktu, sì kìyevame.

Fyawintxu
Eywa ayngahu ma smuk!

Offline Prrton

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2010, 02:14:45 pm »

We need a phrase for "don't worry" and for "no problem." Any ideas, ma täftxuyu lì'uyä?


"Ke zoplo" (oe.ri l-ol-u)

The oe.ri lolu is silent. ;)

It's the last word in your dictionary and you seem to be a man often content to have the "last word" so I find it good karma-wise too. ;)


Zaya'u a srrri nari sayi futa tìngay sivi oel.
<K-ay-ä a [ay]srr-ri nari s-ay-i futa tì.ngay sivi oel.>
"In the days that will come (I) will take care that I clarify."

Quote
Just wondering where srr is from?


trr ("day") >>> ay.trr >>> ay.srr (by standard Frommerian lenition protocol) >>> ay.srr >>> srr ("days")

Quote
PS. Why don't I ever get posts like ". :P

Oh but you do... Sì'ul! ("Tons!") [Shhhhhh. There's the lenition again.] And they'll be on the rise...

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Offline Taronyu

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2010, 03:14:53 pm »
Hmm. I thought about it and I like ke tìkawng. No badness, worries.

I do seem to like the last word. :D Zoplo works, but that's more, "no offense".

As for srr, I'm fairly certain that that doesn't work. You need to have a prefix before ay to make it disappear, it doesn't just do it normally. Also, if a leniting prefix disappears, phonologically speaking it makes no sense for it to still cause lenition. If this is how it works, Frommer made a broken language. I'm also fairly certain that three /r/'s in a row is illegal, but I'm still working through the phonological rules.

:D

Taronyu.

Offline ritx

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2010, 03:16:27 pm »
Kaltxì nìmun

As for the dictionary: I wrote the dictionary. :P

@Taronyu: I can’t see your dictionary.  “You are not allowed to access this section”.  Do you see your dictionary replacing www.leannavi.org/navi-vocabulary?  Per our previous exchange (12/26), I’m still hoping to figure out who to ask to reconsider parts of speech (specifically kin (n) and swok (adj?)).  If you will own the dictionary, I will bug you.


... Cameron ... wants Na'vi to "out Klingon Klingon," ...

That is brilliant.  If we just get a few new words every movie, Na'vi will resemble Vulcan (not so many speakers) rather than Klingon.  Mr. Cameron would not like that, evidently.  But he needs the flexibility to make the language on the fly to fit his vision for sounds and scenes.  And whatever he and Dr. Frommer have the Na'vi say in the next movie, that is Na'vi, ignoring whatever we create (again, Vulcan anyone?).  So it is pointless to create anything without their blessing.

So we need a pitch/plan/approach that convinces Dr. Frommer, and then Mr. Cameron, that allowing us to create new words, with however much guidance / oversight / decision authority they wish to provide, will make Na'vi the next big language, will not diminish the credit they receive for inventing it (or the consulting fee for translating for the next movie - that would be important if it were me), and will make it easier for Dr. Frommer to build a script for the next movie.  Translation surely must be easier without having to invent new words.  All we would need is an agreement that Dr. Frommer would attempt to use existing words rather than create new ones, and in exchange we will remain excited about their language and immediately adopt any changes they make to realize their vision for future movies. Anybody feel like taking on a project?


Quote
We need a phrase for "don't worry" and for "no problem." Any ideas

I submit ke-tsranten-si (it is not important?) or txoa tesw-ol-otìng (forgiven?)

Offline Taronyu

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2010, 03:42:54 pm »
Ritx, it's in here. Please bug me about definitions: I don't think I'll change them unless someone bugs me. There's a guy who's doing that now, by translating the dictionary into dutch. I've already edited those two words you just mentioned.

We're on talking to frommer. It's being taking care of. Watch this forum over the next few days.:)

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2010, 07:11:31 pm »
I just received a reply from Frommer to the email I sent him a while ago and I'm very excited to hear that he's talking to you guys. It sounds like as soon as everything has settled a bit the Na'Vi language ball will really get rolling.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2010, 07:21:24 pm »
Hmm. I thought about it and I like ke tìkawng. No badness, worries.

I do seem to like the last word. :D Zoplo works, but that's more, "no offense".

As for srr, I'm fairly certain that that doesn't work. You need to have a prefix before ay to make it disappear, it doesn't just do it normally. Also, if a leniting prefix disappears, phonologically speaking it makes no sense for it to still cause lenition. If this is how it works, Frommer made a broken language. I'm also fairly certain that three /r/'s in a row is illegal, but I'm still working through the phonological rules.

:D

Taronyu.

Ummmmm...

Read the section on 1. Nouns under Word Classes and Morphology. Frommer gives the example himself aytokx >>> sokx. How does my usage break the rule and how does the rule itself mean that "Frommer made a broken language?"

 :-\

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Offline Taronyu

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Re: The Lexicon
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2010, 11:06:53 pm »
Hmm. I hadn't seen that, I'd been looking in the wrong place (again.)

I don't like this because it seems really ridiculous to me that lenition, a phonological process which occurs according to specified rules in the pronounciation, can be abused like this, where the context is deleted, and the change is retained. It would work diachronically, I suppose, but probably only for certain words. I might go back and read my lenition articles I was looking at last semester, though...

 

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