The Lexicon

[Taronyu]

So, the main issue with Na'vi that I can see isn't the lack of speakers. The growth of this forum, for one, indicates a willingness by cool and interesting people to learn. Rather, however, there is an issue of words that can be used. I've often felt inhibited by lack of vocabulary, when trying to speak conversational Na'vi. Compounds and inferential use of normal words can only go so far.

We've had one movie, with, ultimately, a limited stock. The game offers a slightly enlarged word-hoard. But, where do we go from here?

Shall we email Frommer, asking for more words? Or shall we start a 2nd tier system, using words voted on by the user group, to enlarge the lexicon ourselves? This is what has happened with NeoQuenyan, I believe. Or shall we simply master the words we already have, and try and use impossible words, like ikran, to fit in with daily life? What I don't want is the following conversation:

"I'm taking the ikran to the store."
"Honey, you know it's just a Honda civic., not Tsetse."
"yeah...."

Where to?

[Txur’Itan]

As awsome as would be to form new words for the language, I think we would be better served by letting the Language creators do that work some more.

Get the information from Frommer's published work, at least at first.

Later on when there are enough examples to pick from, it will be tons easier to stay within the structure.

Klingon was challenged by a limited vocabulary, eventually, that ended, then unneeded words were simply left out.

[Eywayä mokri]

Or shall we simply master the words we already have

Everything is said....

[Txur’Itan]

Or shall we simply master the words we already have

Everything is said....

I would have to agree.

[Prrton]

Or shall we simply master the words we already have

Everything is said....

I would have to agree.

I largely agree, but I'm not averse to coining new (compound) words from attested roots for temporary use (until something official/blessed by Dr. Frommer comes out) as long as they are neologisms pertaining to an earthly (non-Pandoran) context. The word I use for grammar (meaning (a book/collection of syntactic and other rules) "lì'utìtäftxurenu" (and "Hal'liwut" for "Hollywood") are not relevant to the indigenous Na'vi culture and never will be. They will never need a grammar. They have no need to study that way. They have no need of writing. Eywa and their cultural traditions will take care of the only knowledge they need to track. In the bookstore earlier today I was thinking what roots might work to convey the word "money" and that led to "store" and even "book". I will also happily abandon words like "lì'utìtäftxurenu" if they are provided elsewhere officially by the "creator" (Dr. Frommer).

But, even in the process of coining and using them, eltul oeyä tseiun nì'ul txura tì'tslam lì'fyayä ngop. Fìteleri tsranten nìtxan ulte perey tengkrr nari si ayoeng fteke nìhawng ngivop. Oel nereu nìwotx a tsa'u Tsahaylu eltuhu Tr. Frawmmeryä lu set!!

But, even in the process of coining and using them, my brain is able to create a stronger understanding of the language. This is a really important subject and we must take care that we not create too much while waiting. What I totally want now is a "Tsahaylu" with Dr. Frommer's brain!!

[ritx]

(please redirect me if I'm posting in the wrong place)

Some lexicons (e.g., http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/) show parts of speech along with Na'vi words.  Some of those parts of speech don't seem credible.  For instance

swok n. = sacred.    Surely sacred is an adjective.
tikin v. = need.       Surely tikin is a noun, because kin is a verb meaning to need.
tiran v. = walk.       {ran v. and tiran n.} would be much more consistent with other words

Does anybody know whether parts of speech in the lexicon are official or supplied by the community, and if the latter, to whom we should suggest changes?

[Taronyu]

They are made by the community, I believe. The problem, as well, is that most words syntactic categories can be changed through the addition of suffixes/affixes: should these words then be included? As well, perhaps the lexicon should show use of the word in a phrase.

[Ta'Ite Eywa]

Shall we email Frommer, asking for more words? Or shall we start a 2nd tier system, using words voted on by the user group, to enlarge the lexicon ourselves? This is what has happened with NeoQuenyan, I believe. Or shall we simply master the words we already have, and try and use impossible words, like ikran, to fit in with daily life? What I don't want is the following conversation:

If we master the words we already have it'll be easier to come up with new words that even people who aren't learning through this forum can understand. If we just vote words in, anyone not in this group wont understand.

Also it seems as if Frommer likes the language a lot seeing that he wants it to become as popular as Klingon has., he's probably already working on a lot more for it.

[shiaru]

My vote goes to mastering what we have and if by the time we are done with that there are no new words we simply and politely petition more from the good doctor.

[Paeter]

We need thousands of new words. We need more words. We need more expressions. More importantly we need a full grammar and many more example sentences.

I don't like the idea of mastering 500 words and that's it. For this language to be truly usable we need at least six thousand words plus expressions. I mean, if we want to take a book and translate the whole thing from English or any other language we need these extra words. If we cannot express anything in Na'vi with as much eloquence as we can in any human language then Na'vi is not a true language.

Frommer cannot be expected to create this language all on his own, he simply will not have the time. This language is already starting to take on a life of its own. Frommer gave it the spark, now it is growing into more and as it enters the minds of more human beings it will need to be allowed to flourish.

I suggest Dr. Frommer elects an official team to work on the Na'vi language with him. We will keep all words in an online corpus/dictionary that everyone can excess for free just like the one we have now. With two or three people (more would be better) creating five to ten words a day, we will have at least 5,475 words and expressions in a year. If any new movies come out, Dr. Frommer can check the official corpus for words and it will keep the language consistent.

It won't take long to master five hundred words for those of us who are experienced with languages. I have a feeling some people may already have. I'm not sure if I want to learn a stagnant language.

Some people seem to think it's not a problem but anyone who speaks a living fully functional foreign language knows it is.

[Tengfya swizaw]

I agree. I think that most of us wish Mr. Frommer were here to help, and almost all of us who have tried composing sentences know how limited the vocabulary can be. Your idea about the "Board of Na'vi Masters" or whatever is a viable one, but very dependent upon Mr. Frommer having a lot of time to spare. I think we all would like to help expand the language (in more ways than just member-wise), but I for one would have to admit that at this point there's very few people who would be capable of constructing new vocabulary (I think we all know who I speak of ). And as much as I'd really like to help out with this sort of thing, I'm only a 15-year old linguistics novice, and quite an 'eveng when it comes to the language. There's a lot of better suited people. But I digress.

My point is that for now, only time will tell if the Powers that Be decide to turn their gaze upon this growing forum, and for now all we can do is learn the 500-odd words, speculate about infixes, and hope.

[Roiki]

Don't forget the language was created to serve a purpose, to give a unified voice to a alien race ina movie with a few dozen lines or so. As new material for the franchise comes out there should be more, but at this point it's somewhat crusial to know what are Dr. Frommers intentions and plans for the language, is he going to develop it further on his own or does he wait until Cameron asks him to develop it further for the sequel. For now we need to wait and see how things play out, even if he'd give as his consent to develop it on our own we can't simply start adding new words every day, otherwise it's gonna end up more "earthlike" if you will.

I say patience and wait 'till we hear something from Dr. Frommer, i'd rather leave the development of a language to professional linguists anyway.

[Taronyu]

We need thousands of new words. We need more words. We need more expressions. More importantly we need a full grammar and many more example sentences.

Some people seem to think it's not a problem but anyone who speaks a living fully functional foreign language knows it is.

I couldn't agree more. I would like more words. Or at least the Swadesh List. Consider that we don't have a word for a water. On Pandora, that seems a bit ridiculous.

[Prrton]

We need thousands of new words. We need more words. We need more expressions. More importantly we need a full grammar and many more example sentences.

Some people seem to think it's not a problem but anyone who speaks a living fully functional foreign language knows it is.

I couldn't agree more. I would like more words. Or at least the Swadesh List. Consider that we don't have a word for a water. On Pandora, that seems a bit ridiculous.

I urge caution and patience, ma smuk. I agree completely that a Pandora without water is a sad place indeed, but for the time being it is lehrrap nìhawng to think about coining new roots. If you use the lexicon we have poetically you can say a LOT!. For the time being, how about tompa kllteyä (the "ground's rain") for "water"? If you can master that kind of metaphor and poetic license now, when the full dictionary comes, you'll be be next in line for the title Txantslusama Eyktan Säftxuyuyä Aylì'uyä and you'll deserve it. You'll also have plug'n'play facility with the new toys. The Na'vi grammatical schema that's already in your head when you get the dictionary in your hand will be able to toss the vocabulary effortlessly around like a skillful ikran might deal with and RDA new recruit! 

Maweya tirea a tsun peiey ayngahu, ma Smuk. Aynga kin a tsat Sempulìl tìyeswotìng.

<Mawey.a tirea a tsun p-ei-ey aynga.hu, ma Smuk (ay.tsmuk: lenited). Aynga kin a tsat Sempul.ìl t-ìy-eswotìng.>

____________________________________

[Taronyu]

Prrton, I don't want the metaphorical terms, I want a full lexicon.

As for the dictionary: I wrote the dictionary.

[Prrton]

Prrton, I don't want the metaphorical terms, I want a full lexicon.

As for the dictionary: I wrote the dictionary.

Ngeyä txe'lan ftxavang nìtxan lu nang!, ma tsmuk. Kxawm ftxavang nìhawng.

Oer'txoa!

Oe set hìyum nìfnu nìwin. Eywa ngahu.

________________________________

[Taronyu]

Ngeyä txe'lan ftxavang nìtxan lu nang!, ma tsmuk. Kxawm ftxavang nìhawng.

Oer'txoa!

Oe set hìyum nìfnu nìwin. Eywa ngahu.

Thanks for the honorific prefix, but you forgot to add the nga. . Also, I'm interested to know what you meant by Oer'txoa. Does -ri ollide, and where are you basing that off, if so? Also, isn't txoa a noun? I'm pretty positive that there isn't verb deletion in Na'vi. Maybe Oeri txoa si - but it would be unclear there what you mean, and the context doesn't provide it, so I'm not sure that this would be good grammar.

Slä oeyä txe'lan ke nìhawng ftxavang lu, nga omum. Ftxavangìl moeru tìng ronsem-txepti, ulte txepìl ke'uti neu slä nì'ulti.

Eywa ngahu, ma leuniltìrana tsmukan.

[edmoreira]

Oe mllte futa ayli'u atxan ke lu. Sä ngari tse'a ayral atxan a tsun ayoeng plltxe!
Oe nìtengfya fparmìl hu Prrton futa ngop ayli'u lehrrap livängu. Sänume amuiä nìkrr ye'rìn zaya'u fteke ne kllte txe'lan ngayä
Livu ye'rin Frommer ayoenghu

ta Etx


Oe mllte futa ay.li'u a.txan ke lu. Sä nga.ri tse'a ay.ral a.txan a tsun ayoeng plltxe!

Oe nì.tengfya fparmìl hu Prrton futa ngop ay.li'u le.hrrap l.iv.äng.u. Sänume a.muiä nì.krr ye'rìn z.ay.a'u fteke ne kllte txe'lan nga.yä

L.iv.u ye'rin Frommer ayoenghu

ta Etx

I agree that we don't have many words. However look at all the things we can say, the meaning we can convey!
I agree with Prrton that making up words may be dangerous. Proper instruction will timely come soon. So don't be sad.

May Frommer be with us soon!
Ed

And again I have a couple of questions. According to the language log post the first position infixes are for tense, mood and aspect and the second position for affect (LAUD, PEJ). Now the second goes after the C that starts the second syllable. So what do you do with the verb lu (I just put the infixes one after the other l.iv.äng.u) and what happens when the second syllable starts with a glottal stop such as za'u? would I write zaya'eiu?

NOTE: I used "think alike" (nìtengfya fparmìl) instead of agree just to try out new ways to say things, to be creative, but it might not work.

[Prrton]

Ngeyä txe'lan ftxavang nìtxan lu nang!, ma tsmuk. Kxawm ftxavang nìhawng.

Oer'txoa!

Oe set hìyum nìfnu nìwin. Eywa ngahu.

Thanks for the honorific prefix, but you forgot to add the nga. .

That may just well be the most clever joke that anyone has ever made re: the fantasy that is the Na'vi language. Kudos! Sìlronsem nìwotx nang!

Also, I'm interested to know what you meant by Oer'txoa. Does -ri ollide, and where are you basing that off, if so? Also, isn't txoa a noun? I'm pretty positive that there isn't verb deletion in Na'vi. Maybe Oeri txoa si - but it would be unclear there what you mean, and the context doesn't provide it, so I'm not sure that this would be good grammar.

Def. not good grammar, but the vulgar (cf: Latin "vulgate") register in almost every language drops virtually any and everything (or contracts) to come up with something that's phonologically and semantically "handy." Even Na'vi does it in the canon. "Eywa ngahu livu."

Oer'txoa is not attested anywhere except in my posts. I've probably used it 2 or 3 times. Others out there are also writing komum for "don't" know and the like. Please take it in that vein. (At least I had the orthography courtesy to stick in an apostrophe. Sheeeesh!)

Oeru txoa livu >>> Oeru txoa livu >>> Oer'txoa

Why this pronunciation and not another you inquisitively inquire...?

OE is the main morpheme in Oe.ru. It gets more pronunciation clout than -ru. The ejective brazenly heading up txoa is not going to back down. He's a tough guy, and HELL!, txoa is the star of the show! So here we are, mesmuk, hangin' out shootin' the ikran poo, (possibly we've had too much to drink?...) there's an air of enunciation bravado pervading the discourse and you're rather annoyed by the fact that I showed you up pretty pxasikkin' good in the pa'li jousting festivities of earlier in the afternoon. I just ain't gonna come up with "Oeru txoa livu" in that scenario. Say it out loud. Don't you hear that I feel bad, but don't want to make a big deal out of it? Syllable final -r is allowed in Na'vi, so it's kind of a no-brainer to me. ...txo OEyä eltu tìplltxeyä txele lu.  I'll bet you two rounds of applause that 9 out of 10 drunken saronyu Na'viyä would catch my drift the very first time I said it (and that other guy has had too many shells full of whatever that stuff is we're drinkin').

Slä oeyä txe'lan ke nìhawng ftxavang lu, nga omum. Ftxavangìl moeru tìng ronsem-txepti, ulte txepìl ke'uti neu slä nì'ulti.

Oer'txoa, ma tsmuk, tìkenong oeyä:

Slä oeyä txe'lan KE nìhawng ftxavang lu futa nga ts-iv-un k'omum, srak? Tìftxavangìl?? moeru tìng ronsem-txepti, ulte txepìl to tì.nekx nì'ul ke'uti new.

Could you not know that (futa) my heart is NOT excessively passionate? Passion bestows a fire (to our) minds and fire wants nothing more than (to) to burn (LIT: "burning").

(Nì.alaksì.l-us-u txana aylì'fu ngaru l-ei-u futa ke tsun tse'a ngal srak? Ma tsmuk!)

Frommer is using this spelling new for "want" recently. It's in the canon for "If you want to live, come with me." I believe that he must have spelled it "neu" for the script so that the actors wouldn't slip up an say the English word "new." BUT, if you're learning the language and conjugating/inflecting the verb yourself, you need to know that it's a one syllablle verb. Ngal oet n-ol-ei-ew. ("I'm glad that you wanted me.")

I don't see how the adverb nì'ul can take -ti. Tì'ulti pol ätxäle s-ol-i seems OK, though. ("He requested an increase.")

Tìtxantslusam Na'viyä ngengaru! (See. I remembered this time.)

PS: Did you smite me? I could swear that my karma is down by about 8% since yesterday. 

[OfPandora]