Author Topic: The prefix em-  (Read 1007 times)

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Offline Mech

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The prefix em-
« on: September 20, 2018, 08:59:29 am »
In the dictionary I noticed a group of verbs that start with em- but otherwise have obvious etymology

emkä (cross) from kä
emrey (survive) from rey
emza’u (pass a test, overcome) from za'u

The em- must be an ancient/obsolete or otherwise undocumented element, perhaps a preposition meaning "over, through" or something.

The official dictionary has a note with which I disagree (unless we have an official explanation about it): it says that emkä is a compound of emza’u and kä. I don't see a logic for this, nor a trace of za'u. In all three cases it seems to be just em- + verb root.

Offline Toliman

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2018, 11:15:54 am »
Interesting idea!

The official dictionary has a note with which I disagree (unless we have an official explanation about it): it says that emkä is a compound of emza’u and kä. I don't see a logic for this, nor a trace of za'u. In all three cases it seems to be just em- + verb root.
Yeah, this looks logical. I would agree with you.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2018, 04:33:45 pm »
insert

ta'em

here

EDIT: also, emrey

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Offline Mech

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2018, 04:43:32 pm »
Hmmm ta'em (from above) would mean that 'em or em is a root for "above" but the tìftang doesn't fit with the verbs.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2018, 04:56:55 pm »
we used to deduce that 'em is "above" from "ta'em" before we knew it as "to cook". (This was in the same ASG era as when "kxener" used to be some kind of fruit or vegetable instead of "smoke" and kì'ong was known as some fruit or vegetable as well instead of "slow")

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2018, 04:57:54 pm »
I guess, ta'em is kind of random. Not all words that include "em" have necessarily to do with a possible "em" root word.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2018, 04:59:20 pm »
It's possible that it's a film retcon like pate?

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Offline Mech

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 05:04:30 pm »
off-topic: what was the derivation of kì'ong and kxener as fruits an vegetables?  :-\

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 05:24:41 pm »
ASG. This is the same doc that has b and d amd impossible glottal stops in alleged "words".

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Offline eejmensenikbenhet

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2018, 06:21:59 am »
Interesting thought! I'm sure they're etymologically linked!

About this:
The official dictionary has a note with which I disagree (unless we have an official explanation about it): it says that emkä is a compound of emza’u and kä. I don't see a logic for this, nor a trace of za'u. In all three cases it seems to be just em- + verb root.

I just reread the post where Pawl introduced emkä and it doesn't seem to indicate anywhere that it is a compound of emza'u and , he merely points out that the shift from intransitive () to transitve (emkä) is similar to za'u and emza'u.

Offline Toliman

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2018, 06:35:19 am »
I just reread the post where Pawl introduced emkä and it doesn't seem to indicate anywhere that it is a compound of emza'u and , he merely points out that the shift from intransitive () to transitve (emkä) is similar to za'u and emza'u.
Yeah, I think it too.

Offline Mech

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2018, 01:46:10 am »
I will continue tracking for possible obscure etymologies :)

tsngan and tsngem seem to be related, considering their similar meaning.

i discovered 2 verbs that mean "shoot": tem and toltem. I am not sure if they have a semantic difference. The latter is obviously derived from the former, and tol- is either a part of another compounded word or another obscure prefix.

Also there seems to be a s- prefix seen in
lu "be" -> slu "become"
teng "same" -> steng "similar"

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2018, 08:18:29 am »
Ive noticed all those too. I don't believe we have any confirmation on any of this or what the missing etymology is.

Did you also notice -'o suffix? it seems to be the weakest part of any word as it is the first thing to be weakened or go away during derivatives:

fya'o => fìfya tsafya pefya/fyape, reyfya, yo'kofya --fya etc.
tsu'o => tsun?? , keltsun, tsunslu, stawmtswo, --tswo, etc.
sä'o => sänume, säspxin, säfpìl, sä-- etc.

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Offline Mech

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2018, 09:02:33 am »
I gain a perverted pleasure when I see "between the lines" and I am able to extrapolate such details. :D

It would be interesting to compile a list of obscure/possible elements that can be extrapolated or indirectly attested. We could then point them out to KP or use them in LEP.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2018, 09:09:41 am »
I gain a perverted pleasure when I see "between the lines" and I am able to extrapolate such details. :D

It would be interesting to compile a list of obscure/possible elements that can be extrapolated or indirectly attested. We could then point them out to KP or use them in LEP.

I love etymology too! I love how compounds and derived words work in Na'vi. :D

I agree it's worth our time to compile such a list of obscure derivations and submit it for consideration/confirmation.

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Offline Toliman

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2018, 09:12:22 am »
It would be interesting to compile a list of obscure/possible elements that can be extrapolated or indirectly attested. We could then point them out to KP or use them in LEP.
Excelletnt idea! :D

Offline Melìsa

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2018, 05:17:55 pm »
In the dictionary I noticed a group of verbs that start with em- but otherwise have obvious etymology

emkä (cross) from kä
emrey (survive) from rey
emza’u (pass a test, overcome) from za'u

The em- must be an ancient/obsolete or otherwise undocumented element, perhaps a preposition meaning "over, through" or something.

The official dictionary has a note with which I disagree (unless we have an official explanation about it): it says that emkä is a compound of emza’u and kä. I don't see a logic for this, nor a trace of za'u. In all three cases it seems to be just em- + verb root.

WOU  :o I never knew of this prefix I never heard of "em" ..too much ...I been only focusing on infixes like ...iv and ol if not ...ei ....like is Soleia=you did it ...or sivako=you can do it/rise to the challenge .. irayo this is kinda new for me
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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2018, 09:19:04 am »
It's not an actual prefix, so don't use it deliberately ;) This discussion here is/was just hypothesis-stuff.

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2018, 04:22:20 pm »
I agree that this is interesting enough to ask K. Pawl about, or work it through the LEP process.

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Re: The prefix em-
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2018, 04:27:33 pm »
I will continue tracking for possible obscure etymologies :)

tsngan and tsngem seem to be related, considering their similar meaning.


Tsngan has pretty much been around since 'the time of the first songs'. tsngem is fairly recent. From conversations I have had with K. Pawl, I can almost guarantee they are related.

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