The prefix em-

Started by Mech, September 20, 2018, 08:59:29 AM

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Mech

In the dictionary I noticed a group of verbs that start with em- but otherwise have obvious etymology

emkä (cross) from kä
emrey (survive) from rey
emza'u (pass a test, overcome) from za'u

The em- must be an ancient/obsolete or otherwise undocumented element, perhaps a preposition meaning "over, through" or something.

The official dictionary has a note with which I disagree (unless we have an official explanation about it): it says that emkä is a compound of emza'u and kä. I don't see a logic for this, nor a trace of za'u. In all three cases it seems to be just em- + verb root.

Toliman

Interesting idea!

Quote from: Mech on September 20, 2018, 08:59:29 AM
The official dictionary has a note with which I disagree (unless we have an official explanation about it): it says that emkä is a compound of emza'u and kä. I don't see a logic for this, nor a trace of za'u. In all three cases it seems to be just em- + verb root.
Yeah, this looks logical. I would agree with you.

Tirea Aean

insert

ta'em

here

EDIT: also, emrey

Mech

Hmmm ta'em (from above) would mean that 'em or em is a root for "above" but the tìftang doesn't fit with the verbs.

Tirea Aean

we used to deduce that 'em is "above" from "ta'em" before we knew it as "to cook". (This was in the same ASG era as when "kxener" used to be some kind of fruit or vegetable instead of "smoke" and kì'ong was known as some fruit or vegetable as well instead of "slow")

Tìtstewan

I guess, ta'em is kind of random. Not all words that include "em" have necessarily to do with a possible "em" root word.

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Tirea Aean

It's possible that it's a film retcon like pate?

Mech

off-topic: what was the derivation of kì'ong and kxener as fruits an vegetables?  :-\

Tirea Aean

ASG. This is the same doc that has b and d amd impossible glottal stops in alleged "words".

eejmensenikbenhet

Interesting thought! I'm sure they're etymologically linked!

About this:
Quote from: Mech on September 20, 2018, 08:59:29 AM
The official dictionary has a note with which I disagree (unless we have an official explanation about it): it says that emkä is a compound of emza'u and kä. I don't see a logic for this, nor a trace of za'u. In all three cases it seems to be just em- + verb root.

I just reread the post where Pawl introduced emkä and it doesn't seem to indicate anywhere that it is a compound of emza'u and , he merely points out that the shift from intransitive () to transitve (emkä) is similar to za'u and emza'u.

Toliman

Quote from: eejmensenikbenhet on September 24, 2018, 06:21:59 AM
I just reread the post where Pawl introduced emkä and it doesn't seem to indicate anywhere that it is a compound of emza'u and , he merely points out that the shift from intransitive () to transitve (emkä) is similar to za'u and emza'u.
Yeah, I think it too.

Mech

I will continue tracking for possible obscure etymologies :)

tsngan and tsngem seem to be related, considering their similar meaning.

i discovered 2 verbs that mean "shoot": tem and toltem. I am not sure if they have a semantic difference. The latter is obviously derived from the former, and tol- is either a part of another compounded word or another obscure prefix.

Also there seems to be a s- prefix seen in
lu "be" -> slu "become"
teng "same" -> steng "similar"

Tirea Aean

Ive noticed all those too. I don't believe we have any confirmation on any of this or what the missing etymology is.

Did you also notice -'o suffix? it seems to be the weakest part of any word as it is the first thing to be weakened or go away during derivatives:

fya'o => fìfya tsafya pefya/fyape, reyfya, yo'kofya --fya etc.
tsu'o => tsun?? , keltsun, tsunslu, stawmtswo, --tswo, etc.
sä'o => sänume, säspxin, säfpìl, sä-- etc.

Mech

I gain a perverted pleasure when I see "between the lines" and I am able to extrapolate such details. :D

It would be interesting to compile a list of obscure/possible elements that can be extrapolated or indirectly attested. We could then point them out to KP or use them in LEP.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Mech on October 05, 2018, 09:02:33 AM
I gain a perverted pleasure when I see "between the lines" and I am able to extrapolate such details. :D

It would be interesting to compile a list of obscure/possible elements that can be extrapolated or indirectly attested. We could then point them out to KP or use them in LEP.

I love etymology too! I love how compounds and derived words work in Na'vi. :D

I agree it's worth our time to compile such a list of obscure derivations and submit it for consideration/confirmation.

Toliman

Quote from: Mech on October 05, 2018, 09:02:33 AM
It would be interesting to compile a list of obscure/possible elements that can be extrapolated or indirectly attested. We could then point them out to KP or use them in LEP.
Excelletnt idea! :D

Melìsa

Quote from: Mech on September 20, 2018, 08:59:29 AM
In the dictionary I noticed a group of verbs that start with em- but otherwise have obvious etymology

emkä (cross) from kä
emrey (survive) from rey
emza'u (pass a test, overcome) from za'u

The em- must be an ancient/obsolete or otherwise undocumented element, perhaps a preposition meaning "over, through" or something.

The official dictionary has a note with which I disagree (unless we have an official explanation about it): it says that emkä is a compound of emza'u and kä. I don't see a logic for this, nor a trace of za'u. In all three cases it seems to be just em- + verb root.

WOU  :o I never knew of this prefix I never heard of "em" ..too much ...I been only focusing on infixes like ...iv and ol if not ...ei ....like is Soleia=you did it ...or sivako=you can do it/rise to the challenge .. irayo this is kinda new for me
Kaltxì Oel Ayngati Kameie Oeru syaw Melìsa I love and respect the Na'vi
Oe tawtute lu

Eana Unil

It's not an actual prefix, so don't use it deliberately ;) This discussion here is/was just hypothesis-stuff.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I agree that this is interesting enough to ask K. Pawl about, or work it through the LEP process.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Mech on October 05, 2018, 01:46:10 AM
I will continue tracking for possible obscure etymologies :)

tsngan and tsngem seem to be related, considering their similar meaning.


Tsngan has pretty much been around since 'the time of the first songs'. tsngem is fairly recent. From conversations I have had with K. Pawl, I can almost guarantee they are related.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]