Author Topic: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal  (Read 2243 times)

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Offline Prrton

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tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« on: February 12, 2010, 04:40:19 am »

First of all, my apologies for posting this as a graphic, but there is NO WAY that I'm going to try to build these tables in HTML. I don't even think it's possible.

I believe that we are ready to start telling time (on Earth) in Na'vi for a few different reasons:

  • If we're going to try to meet in front of the movie theater at the right time to see the Dream again, we need to all get there at the same time.  ;)
  • This system is not relevant to life on Pandora, so there is no real reason for the franchise to create the paradigm or care about it per se. It's only relevant for Na'vi speakers who will use it in pragmatic, everyday life on Earth.
  • It's one of the most "natural" and practical ways to practice with our nifty new numbers.
  • We have enough vocabulary that is semantically "in the ballpark" to be a little creative here, while maintaining practice references back to Pandora-relevant concepts. (i.e. learning how to manipulate the concept of « swaw » in this context should HELP (not hurt) your thinking of aysway mìEywa'eveng.)

I don't mean this as any kind of PROCLAMATION à la "I believe it must be this way". I think this is a really important topic for effecting Na'vi as a real spoken language on our planet and that we should talk it over and agree on the paradigms and set of proposed vocabulary and then send it to K. Pawl so that he can:

  • Correct Errors (some of our terms MAY already have different meanings in his glossary)
  • Decide on the stress patterns for the pronunciations. (I don't believe we can do that intuitively, correctly yet without his help.)
  • Augment/enrich the concepts we come up with.

So, let the whirlwind begin...

A PDF is also attached. And if anyone can code this up... rutxe, slu frrtu oeyä8) (and "yes", I know that is a lame attempt at direct translation humor.)


Offline Plumps

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2010, 07:34:37 am »
Uh, that's a lot to digest - give us time to look it over... ;)

Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2010, 10:35:58 am »
is this supposed to make sense with regard to Pandora? i think you said otherwise but im not sure. but if it is supposed to you must take their month-long days into account. because Pandora is a moon, who's orbital cycle i believe is around 23 days, there will probably be some kind of special notation for days/weeks/months/etc.. But if you're just trying to convey days and time on earth to the Na'vi why not just use phonetic pronunciations of the less important ones? (the days make sense however as you are demonstrating the human purpose for that day)

edit: nevermind i need to learn to read. i understand now.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 10:40:35 am by letxuma Swizaw »
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Offline Ataeghane

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2010, 11:03:32 am »
How can I say "on Monday" for example? mì Trrkemaw?

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Skyinou

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2010, 11:06:11 am »
Kaltxì!
I like the way you did it, finding a meaning for all, but for the hours, you should make it really more simple. Something like 1-24 "hour". If not, everyone will need a dictionary and 5 minutes just to give the time  ;D
Knowing to count up to 24 and a word for "hour" should be enough. It is a bit too simple, but since we have to add it to a language that lack it (maybe), it's good to keep this simple, no?

Irayo anyway, great ideas!
Eywa ngahu ma fkeua Prrton
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Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 01:53:48 pm »
Uh, that's a lot to digest - give us time to look it over... ;)

Ngaru fra'u krrä lekifkey lereiu.  ;)  Fko kop tsun pivlltxe nìtsafya nìToìtse srak?

How can I say "on Monday" for example? mì Trrkemaw?

I suppose that would be correct if you're talking about on a specific Monday, but as a PREposition would likely cause lenition in this scenario so it would be « mìSrrkemaw ». For repetitive actions like "I go to the gym every week on Monday to work out." I assume that it might come out "Monday-ish-ly" with the *adverbial* preposition/enclitic « nì- ». FraSrrahin(ìri) ne *tsìm* kerä tskxekeng.tokx sivi oe nìTrrkemaw.

Ulte, eltu si! That's a « ts » to spell "gym" NOT at « tx ».  ;)

Kaltxì!
I like the way you did it, finding a meaning for all, but for the hours, you should make it really more simple. Something like 1-24 "hour". If not, everyone will need a dictionary and 5 minutes just to give the time  ;D
Knowing to count up to 24 and a word for "hour" should be enough. It is a bit too simple, but since we have to add it to a language that lack it (maybe), it's good to keep this simple, no?

Irayo anyway, great ideas!
Eywa ngahu ma fkeua Prrton

Ma Skyinou, Kaltxì

The meanings are really for the times of day and the hours remain discrete. I used a 12/12 split system in my main examples, because that's my personal preference and everywhere I've ever lived on Earth, it was common to say 3:00 in the afternoon in everyday speech (even though that technically means 15:00) but if you'll look down to the very very end at the text in gray on the right, you'll see that there is still support for a very PRECISE and PRACTICAL 24 hour day using the proposed word for Terran "hour", which if a majority agrees, may become « swawngu ». So:

The Terran time of day (late at night, but before midnight) which is:
  22:47:59  "twenty-two hours, forty-seven minutes & fifty-nine seconds"



would be in Na'vi:
  26:57:73  « mevofu swawngu hu mrrvohin pxi kivopey »

So nobody would be forced to use the more "aesthetic" way to saying it including the names of the divisions of the times of day (as one more or less MUST in Thailand), but it's there as an options and I can see it serving well for poetry, etc. (although I'm not a poet).

Does this satisfy your idea/request?

'Upx.ìm: Oe ke lu fkeu nìwotx, slä ftxavang oeyä fpi lì'fya leNavi lereiu txur nìngay nìlaw.  ;)

Offline Ataeghane

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 02:12:45 pm »
Quote
I suppose that would be correct if you're talking about on a specific Monday, but mì as a PREposition would likely cause lenition in this scenario so it would be « mìSrrkemaw ». For repetitive actions like "I go to the gym every week on Monday to work out." I assume that it might come out "Monday-ish-ly" with the *adverbial* preposition/enclitic « nì- ».
Thank you very much. Yes, I should have used lenition after , if it's before the word. But is necessary to link with with the word (mìSrrkemaw)?

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 02:22:55 pm »
Quote
I suppose that would be correct if you're talking about on a specific Monday, but mì as a PREposition would likely cause lenition in this scenario so it would be « mìSrrkemaw ». For repetitive actions like "I go to the gym every week on Monday to work out." I assume that it might come out "Monday-ish-ly" with the *adverbial* preposition/enclitic « nì- ».
Thank you very much. Yes, I should have used lenition after , if it's before the word. But is necessary to link with with the word (mìSrrkemaw)?

I think it's still a bit of an open question for the orthography (writing), but in speech there is no real distinction (without what a comma represents happening) between « mìSrrkemaw » and « mì Srrkemaw ». In a literate society I can see the writing conventions having an effect on pronunciation (e.g. dialect variations) over time, but the Na'vi don't read and write, so I don't think they have any way to distinguish between the two. This is something that K. Pawl will just need to decide and tell us, or that we'll need to "work out" with him if that kind of open dialog ever becomes pervasively possible. We know that with adjectives he feels that « a » should be written as "attached to them", but I don't think there has been a "ruling" regarding the adpositions. Perhaps I've missed something. It's happened before...  ;)

Make sense?

Offline Ataeghane

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 02:37:13 pm »
I think so. Na'vi is unwritten language, so I think we can, as a matter of fact, write what we want :D. There's no ortography, yupi :P!

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Skyinou

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 03:00:34 pm »
and I can see it serving well for poetry, etc. (although I'm not a poet).

Irayo ma Prrton,
tsole'a oel tsa'ut a krr, fpamìl tsnì oel faylì'ut nìyevumeie  ;D
Still, for beginner, I think a simple main system is better (12/12 or 24). Keeping the "poetical" one for people like you and me (and a few/lot? others) who will learn everything.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:46:38 pm by Skyinou »
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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 03:49:53 pm »
Hmmm, as has been said before, this is a lot to digest. However, my first thought is that this all looks good but I would think the Na'vi would have words for things like "morning" and "afternoon" (or some other words for parts of the day) so it seems like creating these is stepping a little on Frommer's/Cameron's toes a bit. Just a thought though, I'm all for getting these into common usage if Frommer gives us a thumbs up.

Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 06:06:11 pm »
Hmmm, as has been said before, this is a lot to digest. However, my first thought is that this all looks good but I would think the Na'vi would have words for things like "morning" and "afternoon" (or some other words for parts of the day) so it seems like creating these is stepping a little on Frommer's/Cameron's toes a bit. Just a thought though, I'm all for getting these into common usage if Frommer gives us a thumbs up.

I agree that there probably are some words for times of day in K. Pawl's current 1/2-secret glossary, but if they already exist and we don't know them yet, we can just substitute later. We have lots of different words for "Morning" in English. AM, Morn, Daybreak, Dawn, First Light, Sunup. I used « 'it'evi » for "infant" for a few days and then we got « prrnen » so I threw it out. And, I'm not suggesting that we just CODIFY and wholeheartedly adopt this without feedback/blessing/correction from K. Pawl. I think it absolutely HAS to go to him (at a minimum to ask him for accent/stress), and I'm sure that if it ruffles his feathers in any way, he'll be happy to KAR back. :)

I just want feedback (like Skyinou's above) that sticking with a simple 12/12 or 24 hour system is best; or that Thursday should be "Thanator Day"; or that the year convention ("2010" C.E. = « 02 'I.N. ») is stoooopid. That kind of thing.

There's no huge rush. Just read through it leisurely at some point during all your extra LEISURE of late.  ;)

We need a word for "leisure" don't we..?.. Hmmmmm... I'm thinking « Prrtekrr »...

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2010, 05:41:44 am »
Uh, that's a lot to digest - give us time to look it over... ;)

Ngaru fra'u krrä lekifkey lereiu.  ;)  Fko kop tsun pivlltxe nìtsafya nìToìtse srak?

Tsap'alute, slä oel ngeyä ralit ke kame...

Offline Is.

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2010, 10:25:06 am »
Uh, that's a lot to digest - give us time to look it over... ;)

Ngaru fra'u krrä lekifkey lereiu.  ;)  Fko kop tsun pivlltxe nìtsafya nìToìtse srak?

Tsap'alute, slä oel ngeyä ralit ke kame...


Kxawm..... "You have all the time in the world! One can say it like that in German, too?"

Slä ralìri Prrtonyä oer nìteng ke law lu nìwotx.

Anyway, it's a real cool system you've thought up, Prrton! Na oe eokrr parmlltxe: ngeyä eltu txantsan leiu nìngay!

Personally though I prefer to just write out the Earth-only concepts in Na'vified english (Errta!), or just like *Monday* or something. I wish we had like a Na'vi equivalent of katakana for that, heh. However, when it comes to stuff like the different parts of the day, morning, evening, night, etc... I really encourage that stuff! And seasons. Stuff that's relatively universal. I think you did a great job there and I'll definitely be using your inventions until Frommer tells us otherwise.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 11:03:21 am by Is. »

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2010, 11:04:47 am »
Uh, that's a lot to digest - give us time to look it over... ;)

Ngaru fra'u krrä lekifkey lereiu.  ;)  Fko kop tsun pivlltxe nìtsafya nìToìtse srak?

Tsap'alute, slä oel ngeyä ralit ke kame...

Kxawm..... "You have all the time in the world! One can say it like that in German, too?"

Kxangangang  :-\ Of course! Now it makes sence... But why is krr in the genitive? And I didn't connect the second sentence to the first.
Srane, ayoengìl plltxe tsa'ut nìteng nìToìtse ;)

Irayo fu san tack så mycket sìk, ma Is :)

Offline tawway

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2010, 01:28:13 am »
why not use particles like san/sik ?

vomrr pxevosìng (sak) lu

No prizes for guessing the other one  :)

Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2010, 09:55:18 pm »
why not use particles like san/sik ?

vomrr pxevosìng (sak) lu

No prizes for guessing the other one  :)

Nìpxinari fpi peu?

Offline Skyinou

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2010, 01:05:49 am »
Kaltxì,

maybe we shoud have something like that too?

about time:

after / 'imakrr

before / eoakrr

first / 'awveakrr

late / tamakrr (short for : tam.im.a.krr)

early / tamawkrr

What do you think?
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Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2010, 01:34:28 am »
Kaltxì,

maybe we shoud have something like that too?

about time:

after / 'imakrr

before / eoakrr

first / 'awveakrr

late / tamakrr (short for : tam.im.a.krr)

early / tamawkrr

What do you think?

I think we definitely NEED these, but...

(1) I think we already have "first" with « nì'awve », the way you've written it, and « krr a'awve » the other way around.

(2) We can send the others, but I won't be surprised if K. Pawl doesn't already have some kind of paradigm for saying these or if he comes back saying he has some kind of strong feeling that they should be (quite) different. These terms are not unique to time on Earth, so the Na'vi (as imagined by K. Pawl) may have some way to deal with them on Pandora already. So he might respond with with answers that don't look like these or follow this semantic logic. Of course, that can be said for EVERYTHING that I've proposed too, even though much of it IS Earth specific.  ;D

But, again, it's a great idea to send these at the same time because of their relationship to and invaluable role in talking about time anywhere!

Irayo!


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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2010, 09:53:00 am »
Kaltxì,

maybe we shoud have something like that too?

about time:

after / 'imakrr

before / eoakrr

first / 'awveakrr

late / tamakrr (short for : tam.im.a.krr)

early / tamawkrr

What do you think?
Why do you use 'a' inside everywhere? Do we need it in compounds?

Why is "minute" "swawsutx"? "moment-track"? I don't get it.

EDIT2: OK, I can see it. Bottom of the table.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 10:10:22 am by Ataeghane »

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

 

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