Tsnì vs futa.

[Is.]

Kaltxì frapor!

Both tsnì and futa mean, roughly, "that". Like, I hope that... Sìlpey tsnì oe...

So I noticed in Seabass' post here regarding Frommer's letter that it is preffered to use the "tsnì" in the case above with the verb sìlpey. I was wondering why this is. What would happen if I used "futa" instead?

Do we know how to break down tsnì, like we can break down futa (fì'u+a?)?

Txo fìtìpawm nìskxawng lu, oeru txoa livu.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Perhaps tsnì is tsa-nì and is actually "that ____ly" or I hope that like this. This is pretty tenuous but I can't think of a better one at the moment.

That would also clear up a bit about its usage, it might also be used with seem (lam).

As I say, it's tenuous but its the best I've got.

[suomichris]

Perhaps tsnì is tsa-nì and is actually "that ____ly" or I hope that like this. This is pretty tenuous but I can't think of a better one at the moment.

I'm not sure about the breakdown of the word, but I think this is probably close to what's going on; something like "hope" might well be intransitive (perhaps more literally, "hopefully"); consider, from Frommer's letter (stress marks mine and incomplete):

Sìlpéy óe, layú oéru yé'rìn sìltsan a fmawn
"I hope, I will soon have good news"

That certainly makes it look intransitive (although one notes that this is ambiguous, since it could also be a tsun/new/zene-type verb).

Since futa is really "that.ACC," it can only go with transitive verbs; thus, no futa here; you'd have to have tsanì (optionally).  Actually, maybe the analysis by kawngä does work, and clauses like this with tsanì are more literally: "I am hopeful thusly: X."  It is a bit weird to have the adverbializer on the end, there, but since it would most normally attach to whatever follows, but whatever follows is its own clause, this has become a sort of set form...  Hopefully we'll see more examples of this, soon!

[Is.]

Perhaps tsnì is tsa-nì and is actually "that ____ly" or I hope that like this. This is pretty tenuous but I can't think of a better one at the moment.

something like "hope" might well be intransitive (perhaps more literally, "hopefully"); consider, from Frommer's letter (stress marks mine and incomplete):

Since futa is really "that.ACC," it can only go with transitive verbs; thus, no futa here; you'd have to have tsanì (optionally).

Tsafpìlfyari ngeyä sìltsan nìtxan lu, ma 'eylan! 

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Since futa is really "that.ACC," it can only go with transitive verbs; thus, no futa here; you'd have to have tsanì (optionally).  Actually, maybe the analysis by kawngä does work, and clauses like this with tsanì are more literally: "I am hopeful thusly: X."  It is a bit weird to have the adverbializer on the end, there, but since it would most normally attach to whatever follows, but whatever follows is its own clause, this has become a sort of set form...  Hopefully we'll see more examples of this, soon!

That's what I was trying to suggest but, as usual, you put it much better.

*does correct(ish) anlysis dance* 

I like the thusly translation, shall we suggest it to Taronyu as a clarification (although we might need to clarify thusly as "in this way")?

So futa is for transitive verbs and tsnì for intransitive ones. Good, we're gradually macheteing our way through the jungle of unknown grammar. 

[Taronyu]

futa is actually fì'ut a, not fì'u a. It is accusative. It's used like so:

Oel kame futa new kivame.
I-ERG see that-which-ACC want see-SUBJ.

[Txur’Itan]

futa is actually fì'ut a, not fì'u a. It is accusative. It's used like so:

Oel kame futa new kivame.
I-ERG see that-which-ACC want see-SUBJ.

The sources of these respective words should be indicated.

tsnì is in the page 202 of the ASG.
futa Could the sourcing details for this word be posted on the wiki?  I think it would be informative.  I would do it myself, but I don't fully understand the process involved nor how one would figure out its origins based on that usage example.

[suomichris]

futa is actually fì'ut a, not fì'u a. It is accusative. It's used like so:

Oel kame futa new kivame.
I-ERG see that-which-ACC want see-SUBJ.

The sources of these respective words should be indicated.

tsnì is in the page 202 of the ASG.
futa Could the sourcing details for this word be posted on the wiki?  I think it would be informative.  I would do it myself, but I don't fully understand the process involved nor how one would figure out its origins based on that usage example.

Both of these have appeared in communications from Frommer, I believe...

[Txur’Itan]

futa is actually fì'ut a, not fì'u a. It is accusative. It's used like so:

Oel kame futa new kivame.
I-ERG see that-which-ACC want see-SUBJ.

The sources of these respective words should be indicated.

tsnì is in the page 202 of the ASG.
futa Could the sourcing details for this word be posted on the wiki?  I think it would be informative.  I would do it myself, but I don't fully understand the process involved nor how one would figure out its origins based on that usage example.

Both of these have appeared in communications from Frommer, I believe...

I do not doubt it.  But, wouldn't you like to be a bit more certain of that?

[Keylstxatsmen]

futa is actually fì'ut a, not fì'u a. It is accusative. It's used like so:

Oel kame futa new kivame.
I-ERG see that-which-ACC want see-SUBJ.

The sources of these respective words should be indicated.

tsnì is in the page 202 of the ASG.
futa Could the sourcing details for this word be posted on the wiki?  I think it would be informative.  I would do it myself, but I don't fully understand the process involved nor how one would figure out its origins based on that usage example.

Both of these have appeared in communications from Frommer, I believe...

I do not doubt it.  But, wouldn't you like to be a bit more certain of that?

This is the first attested use of "futa":

    Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na'vi set fìfya pivlltxe!
    "I didn't think that there was anyone who could speak Na'vi like that at this point!"

In an email exchange with Prrton that he posted here a few weeks ago, the "fì'ut a" breakdown also comes from Dr. Frommer, I can't remember who asked but someone guessed and they were right.

-Keyl

[Taronyu]

futa is actually fì'ut a, not fì'u a. It is accusative. It's used like so:

Oel kame futa new kivame.
I-ERG see that-which-ACC want see-SUBJ.

The sources of these respective words should be indicated.

tsnì is in the page 202 of the ASG.
futa Could the sourcing details for this word be posted on the wiki?  I think it would be informative.  I would do it myself, but I don't fully understand the process involved nor how one would figure out its origins based on that usage example.

http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/frommerian-email/?topicseen

[Alìm Tsamsiyu]

futa is actually fì'ut a, not fì'u a. It is accusative. It's used like so:

Oel kame futa new kivame.
I-ERG see that-which-ACC want see-SUBJ.

I believe it breaks down into this.thing-ACC-which, rather than that.

I suppose you might have just shortened it, but it does change the meaning ever so slightly.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

It's just a slightly idiomatic translation, he means "this thing-ACC that/which".

[Taronyu]

It's just a slightly idiomatic translation, he means "this thing-ACC that/which".

Aye. Apologies.

Oel new futa (= fì'ut a) kivä.

And you also have sentences like:

Oel new futa Taronyu kivä. I want Taronyu to go.

I'm still trying to work out the most important question: Is Frommer implying something here? 

[omängum fra'uti]

I don't think he is.

Implying anything that is.  He said it pretty clearly.

[Alìm Tsamsiyu]

Oel new futa (= fì'ut a) kivä.

And you also have sentences like:

Oel new futa Taronyu kivä. I want Taronyu to go.

I'm still trying to work out the most important question: Is Frommer implying something here? 

Yep - Obviously he wants to eat you as a fast-food snack, most likely while driving in his car.

I want that cheezburger to go xD

[Kiliyä]

McTaronyu?