usage of fìtsap

[Plumps]

Alright, finally having this new way of saying 'each other' ... I came across the first difficulty.

How would you say 'we can talk with each other' fìtsap is marked as an adv., so we couldn't combine it with ADPs, right? Is it important where the fìtsap stands? Where does the ‹äp› go?

we talk with each other ~ *oeng fìtsap päpängkxo or *oeng fìtsap päpeykängkxo
Is it:
tsun oeng fìtsap päpivängkxo or tsun oeng fìtsap päpeykivängkxo

The main difficulty I have is that I thought reflexives could only be made of transitive verbs. Pängkxo is intranstive though...

Help and your thoughts would be much appreciated

[Blue Elf]

Good question. AFAIK äp is allowed to use it even in intransitive verbs, if it has reason (remember win säpi, ioi säpoli)
So I prefer first versions of your example sentences. The only example from Pawl uses transitive verb, so it is hard to make decision it is usable with intransitives too, on the other hand - why not?
About position - I think fìtsap can stand on both sides of the verb. Paul didn't say anything about exact position, so I expect free order

[Carborundum]

Good question. AFAIK äp is allowed to use it even in intransitive verbs, if it has reason (remember win säpi, ioi säpoli)
So I prefer first versions of your example sentences. The only example from Pawl uses transitive verb, so it is hard to make decision it is usable with intransitives too, on the other hand - why not?
About position - I think fìtsap can stand on both sides of the verb. Paul didn't say anything about exact position, so I expect free order

A good analysis IMO.

[Sireayä mokri]

How about not using äp at all?

[Carborundum]

How about not using äp at all?

Since the only example we have contains both <äp> and fìtsap, with no mention of fìtsap by itself, using it that way is a complete shot in the dark.

[Sireayä mokri]

Well, I never said I had anything to back it up, however it seems somewhat like a possibility to me.

[Carborundum]

Well, I never said I had anything to back it up, however it seems somewhat like a possibility to me.

Yes, it's definitely a possibility.

[Tanri]

I think that we can use fìtsap with many intransitive verbs without <äp>, and pängkxo is a good example.

It is a verb that cannot, under no circumstances, take an object. The only way to attach a noun to pängkxo is to use adpositions: Oe pängkxo pohu teri tsatxele. - "I chat with him about that matter".
In my opinion, such a verbs can be used with fìtsap alone, without <äp>, if the meaning makes sense.
The majority, if not all, truly intransitive verbs fall to this category, so the sentence:
Trram ayoe fìtsap teri tsatxele polängkxo ulte ayoe mllte. - "Yesterday we chat with each other about that matter, and we agree" should be correct.

However, there are intransitive verbs, that are intransitive "by grammar", but take an indirect object in reality. For example, as Blue Elf noted, compound verbs with si.
In that cases, I would use <äp>, if it is not yet used in the verb:
Moe fìtsap ioi säpoli fa tsamopin - "We (two) painted each other with colors of war".

[Carborundum]

Trram ayoe fìtsap teri tsatxele polängkxo ulte ayoe mllte. - "Yesterday we chat with each other about that matter, and we agree" should be correct.

Or perhaps trram ayoehu fìtsap teri tsatxele polängkxo.

Or something else entirely.

[Plumps]

Exactly my point ... thank you all for your input so far.
I'm very curious to see how K. Pawl will handle these examples.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Exactly my point ... thank you all for your input so far.
I'm very curious to see how K. Pawl will handle these examples.

Especially when one considers that <äp> is supposed to mean the action returns upon the subject.  Using <äp> in my experience as simply an 'intransitivizer' (There's a missing A list word  ) is a novel use of that infix.

[Plumps]

Next problem... 'they know each other' when using smon...
*mefor fìtsap smäpon

[Blue Elf]

Well, even harder... My thoughts:
Nga smon oeru - I know you (standard usage, no problem)
* Nga fìtsap smäpon meforu - You are known to they two each other. Meaning: both of they know you each other (but if they two know each other is not clear - they can know each other, or not)
* Mefo fìtsap smäpon meforu - they two are known to each other

gives sense at least a little? It would be very interest to hear response from Paul

[Tirea Aean]

wow. VERY good question that I did not think about. several, actually. [following this thread]

We know each other. I feel like there is a much less convoluded/confusing way to say that.

Didn't he say on the blog that just using äp would mean each person to his self, and that äp+fìtsap would mean each one to the other? interesting question about what is fìtsap without äp... maybe it just means "reciprocally" or something close to that?

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

wow. VERY good question that I did not think about. several, actually. [following this thread]

We know each other. I feel like there is a much less convoluded/confusing way to say that.

Didn't he say on the blog that just using äp would mean each person to his self, and that äp+fìtsap would mean each one to the other? interesting question about what is fìtsap without äp... maybe it just means "reciprocally" or something close to that?

Doesn't fìtsap imply recriprocity by itself, without needing <äp> In most other places in Na'vi (with the notable exception of double negatives), the goal in usage seems to avoid duplication of meaning, unless there is a good reason to duplicate it.

[Tanri]

Doesn't fìtsap imply recriprocity by itself, without needing <äp> In most other places in Na'vi (with the notable exception of double negatives), the goal in usage seems to avoid duplication of meaning, unless there is a good reason to duplicate it.

This is the right question.

Technically, <äp> is used to convert a three-constituent sentence "subject + transitive_verb + object" to two-constituent "noun + verb", where noun plays a role of subject and object in the same time.
Then, fìtsap fine-tunes the meaning when compound noun is used.

So, I don't see any problem with fìtsap alone, using it without <äp>.
The only unclear thing is, how can we turn a sentence "subject + intransitive_verb + indirect_object" to "noun + intransitive_verb", where noun plays a role of subject and indirect_object in the same time?

Because if this is impossible, we have to use full-blown sentences like "Mefo fìtsap smon mefor", with all constituents in place. Again, fìtsap does nothing more than a change in meaning, not a change in grammar ("they two know another two people" X "they two know each other").

[Blue Elf]

Well, trying to play with fitsap more:
example of "fitsap" we have speaks about two persons: Mefo fìtsap mäpoleyam -> The two of them hugged each other.
Do you think it is safe to extend this usage for more people like:
Sutan alahe näpìn fìtsap -> Other men look at himself each other (each of them look at every other of them).

I see there was example in this thread with "ayoe.... fìtsap", but is there confirmation? Probably "fitsap = fìpo tsaporu (one to one)" is not best here and something like "*fayfo tsayforu (more to more)" would be more appropriate, but it needs a word from Paul...

[Tirea Aean]

Has anyone mailed him.about this? if not I would like to soon.

[Tanri]

Eltur tìtxen si, ma Blue Elf.
From what I hope to know, Fìtsap was derived from "fìpo tsapor", but now it is a full featured and independent adverb that means "each other".
IMHO there is no direct relation between fìtsap and number of people involved. As long as the meaning "each other" fits to the particular situation, we can use it.

For example:
A group of hunters returns to Hometree without a pray, and they are ironically welcomed by someone else:
Tse, lam oeru fwa ke lolu ayngar kea syayvi. Srake ayngal tswola' futa ätxäle si yerikur tsnì pivey ayswizawit ayngeyä?
Saronyu fìtsap näpalmìn ulte 'awpo a fokip 'oleyng san Fnu ma Kamun! Trray ngal ayeyk awngat ulte fko tayìng nari tsakemur a nga tsun ivinan fratsmìmit nìftue sìk.

Edit: nìn instead of tse'a

[Blue Elf]

HRH, nice example. Ok, we can use fìtsap even for groups - unless we get another explanation.

Has anyone mailed him.about this? if not I would like to soon.

It would be great. At least there are no news at this field from any side...