What happened to le- and si ?

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Most of the learning references I have worked with to date state that there are two ways to add an adjective to a noun. The first is to use -a- constructions. The second is to use a le- construction. If the le- word follows the noun, no further adjective marking is needed.

Second, you can modify many nouns into verbs with si.

Now, I see both le- and si have been marked as 'completely unproductive' in the newest dictionaries. When did this change, and what are the ramifiacations for everyday usage?

[Skxawng]

Most of the learning references I have worked with to date state that there are two ways to add an adjective to a noun. The first is to use -a- constructions. The second is to use a le- construction. If the le- word follows the noun, no further adjective marking is needed.

I'd say its more along the lines of if the adjective is created with a le- prefix, and proceeds the noun it modifies, adding an -a- to the front is redundant and not done.

However, not all adjectives start with le-, and le- is not required as an addition to words that are already adjectives. so with an adjective like mip, you'd need to add the -a- to whichever side.  

Lu po taronyu amip, not Lu po taronyu lemip.

As for the ramifications, Taronyu (Rich) will probably have a better answer. I can't be certain but my guess is that for the most part le- and si were there in the first place to make it easier for Frommer to come up with verbs and adjectives on the fly during production without having to go completely back to the chalkboard and make sure things work.  Now that the language is expanding far after the movie was made, specific words for everyday adjectives can be made without simply slapping the prefix/suffix, leading to a more mature language.   tì'efumì oeyä, It would be kind of repetitave to have 'si' used all over the place - I far prefer specific verbs over constructions.

Furthermore, simply adding si onto a noun isn't always clear, and na'vi is a pretty clean and specific language.   Si can be do and it can mean make, and as a result can be somewhat vauge.

Kelku si, for example means 'to live, to dwell' but literally translated says 'Make home / Do home' which - were it not for the fact that it is explicitly stated by frommer as being 'to live/dwell' - might mean "make this place into a home" or simply "occupy"

or look at  Eltu si (pay attention!) - literally, it says 'Make / Do Brain"  which might be translated as "Think" or "Ponder" were it not for, again, Paul's explicit indications.

Until K. Pawl told us that 'Muntxa si' mean 'To mate (with someone) or to Marry' there was a lot of assumptions by the less mature members that it meant 'to have sex' or something along those lines. 

Take the noun Oeyk (cause)  if you turned it to a verb, you'd have "Do cause" or "make cause" which has several possible meanings, like Start Something, Be the cause of, Disrupt, Take Action or even Lead.

I think as far as everyday use goes, though, both le- and si can still be used to indicate a thing, however it is important to realize that in doing so, you might be completely off the mark and incorrect, or your intended translation might mean something else entirely further down the road when more vocab becomes available. 

[wm.annis]

Now, I see both le- and si have been marked as 'completely unproductive' in the newest dictionaries. When this change, and what are the ramifiacations for everyday usage?

That's not a change in the language, but a change in our understanding.  They were always unproductive in the sense that while there will be a relationship between a word and the le- or si form derived from it, that relationship is not completely predictable.

The main result of this is that (1) we cannot just coin new adjectives and verbs on our own using these and so (2) it's best to check the dictionary.  If you see a le- adjective that isn't in the dictionary, someone invented it and it escaped, but without Frommer's ok.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Thank you, that helps a lot.

I know this is also the case with tì and nì now. I guess then, I am guilty of 'creating' tìkeftxo and tìmuiä for the Prophecy of Aslan (done before I knew this was not permitted). Ke sìltsan `Eylan  K. Pawl will never, ever speak to me now! 

[P.A.'li makto]

All my respect is K. Pawl's, but may I ask a question? For how long will it be necessary to get his permission to change or invent anything about the Na'vi language? I mean it's a language, right? Languages are not possessions of certain persons... There're constantly changing phenomena, being changed by all the people using it... For a time it's okay to consult with the Father of the language, but for how long?

[wm.annis]

All my respect is K. Pawl's, but may I ask a question? For how long will it be necessary to get his permission to change or invent anything about the Na'vi language? I mean it's a language, right? Languages are not possessions of certain persons... There're constantly changing phenomena, being changed by all the people using it... For a time it's okay to consult with the Father of the language, but for how long?

Na'vi will always be his creation.  While natural languages are constantly changing, this is simply not the case with created languages.  Na'vi is still very young and missing large areas of vocabulary and semantic detail.  Unless we want Na'vi to splinter into several factional dialects, Karyu Pawl will need to be the arbiter of innovations in it for quite a while yet.

[Taronyu]

....man, factional dialects would be awesome.

And yes, we must wait. Sadly. And hopefully. (Interesting adverbial construction there, I think...)

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

And I fully agree, frustrating as it sometimes is, that K. Pawl needs to continue being in control of the vocabulary (I hope you understand what I wrote was an attempt at humor). I am sure a time will come when we can construct new words ourselves, but not before all of the controlling parameters are thoroughly understood.

Think about it though. How often is it that you construct a new word in your own, natural language?

One word of advice is to fully participate in lexical expansion projects, when they come along.