Author Topic: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal  (Read 2202 times)

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Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2010, 02:06:38 am »
NOTE: I'm going to package up everyone's feedback and send this off to K. Pawl over the weekend. If you have anything more to say, say it on FRIDAY, please.

IRAYO!

   -Prr

PS: The word for Earth is officially now spelled « 'Rrta ». It derives from the English based on the principles I outlined on page one and has been phonologically corrected by K. Pawl. The pseudo-vowels « rr & ll » cannot occur except after a consonant, but the glottal stop ( ' ) is valid as a full consonant. It is not "legal" for « rr » to come after the vowel « e », but the pronunciation as spelled in this paragraph is actually a bit closer to the English word "Earth" than with the Na'vi « E » at the start. I will post the full explanation from him in his words soon in the language update section.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2010, 07:54:22 am »
The pseudo-vowels « rr & ll » cannot occur except after a consonant

Huh.  That's new.  Neat.

We knew a syllable with rr/ll could not end with a consonant, but we didn't know it had to begin with one.

(Is that actually the rule?  Or is the rule "cannot occur except after a consonant", which would mean that rr/ll could be a syllable unto themselves if the previous syllable ended with a consonant... although there may be no practical difference between those two rules, since I'm still not sure under what circumstances syllabification matters...)

  - Eri
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 11:16:59 am by Erimeyz »

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2010, 08:18:43 am »
NOTE: I'm going to package up everyone's feedback and send this off to K. Pawl over the weekend. If you have anything more to say, say it on FRIDAY, please.

It's Friday, and here is what I have to say.

I have serious reservations about sending any of this off to Dr. Frommer.  Let's be blunt: this is the equivalent of fan-fic.  Really, really, good fan-fic, but fan-fic nonetheless.  Asking him to "correct errors, decide on stress patterns, and augment/enrich concepts" is, in my opinion, asking him to put an authorial imprimatur on something that isn't his.  Moreover, whenever he speaks about the language he is implicitly also speaking for James Cameron.  Asking for such a blessing on our own creations strikes me as very, very inappropriate.

I think your Na'vi terminology for Earthly time is a cool concept, and will be both fun and useful for us Fans... but it needs to stay with us, and be used by us (or rejected or modified by us) for quite some time before we look to see if Karyu Pawl likes it or not.

IHMO.

  - Eri
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 11:16:18 am by Erimeyz »

Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2010, 04:30:57 pm »
NOTE: I'm going to package up everyone's feedback and send this off to K. Pawl over the weekend. If you have anything more to say, say it on FRIDAY, please.

It's Friday, and here is what I have to say.

I have serious reservations about sending any of this off to Dr. Frommer.  Let's be blunt: this is the equivalent of fan-fic.  Really, really, good fan-fic, but fan-fic nonetheless.  Asking him to "correct errors, decide on stress patterns, and augment/enrich concepts" is, in my opinion, asking him to put an authorial imprimatur on something that isn't his.  Moreover, whenever he speaks about the language he is implicitly also speaking for James Cameron.  Asking for such a blessing on our own creations strikes me as very, very inappropriate.

I think your Na'vi terminology for Earthly time is a cool concept, and will be both fun and useful for us Fans... but it needs to stay with us, and be used by us (or rejected or modified by us) for quite some time before we look to see if Karyu Pawl likes it or not.

IHMO.

  - Eri


Well noted and I feel strongly that your opinion is also valid for many complex, pragmatic reasons, but here's a counterpoint... For Na'vi to become fluently spoken it has to work for our world (too). And for K. Pawl to also become a fluent speaker (and understand the *fan* dialect (including our vocabulary), he has to have others to speak with (not just to). And, as a teacher, he needs to understand what we DON'T understand in order to be able to formulate the best strategies to teach.

If it were not for this document (and my mistake on « 'Errta » we wouldn't know the rule (clearly, with this great, practical example) about no syllable-intial ll or rr. And, he's already seen it "unofficially" and he really liked the term « txon'ong » for evening and has started using it already.

This is also an experiment. He may actually sit down to look at this and say "as a methodology for interacting with you all on this linguistic endeavor front for things that are not relevant to Pandora, this is overwhelming to me and I'd prefer that you all just do this yourselves" or he may say something like "this is very helpful to me and keep similar things coming, but please be patient for response(s)."

I disagree that this is a direct corollary to fan fiction. That can be taken or left as one chooses. We (I anyway) can't speak Na'vi fluently without a universal (non-biased towards English) way to deal with the pragmatics of linear time. Other inalienable frameworks/paradigms/terminology sets will doubtlessly emerge. Commerce, Technology (eltu lefngap), Non-ikran-based High-speed Transportation,...

So, I'm going to send it, but will be prepared to be very patient for a response, and will humbly accept "no" as that response if that is what ends up being returned.

Thank you for your comment and the lucid thinking behind it. I sincerely appreciate it.  ;D

_____________________
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 05:15:38 pm by Prrton »

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2010, 04:44:09 pm »
Thank you for your comment and the lucid thinking behind it. I sincerely appreciate it.  ;D

As I appreciate everything you've done as well.

  - Eri

Offline roger

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2010, 06:54:38 pm »
The pseudo-vowels « rr & ll » cannot occur except after a consonant

Huh.  That's new.  Neat.

We knew a syllable with rr/ll could not end with a consonant, but we didn't know it had to begin with one.

(Is that actually the rule?  Or is the rule "cannot occur except after a consonant", which would mean that rr/ll could be a syllable unto themselves if the previous syllable ended with a consonant... although there may be no practical difference between those two rules, since I'm still not sure under what circumstances syllabification matters...)

The test would be what the approbative (laudative) of kxll is.

Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2010, 07:29:27 pm »
The pseudo-vowels « rr & ll » cannot occur except after a consonant

Huh.  That's new.  Neat.

We knew a syllable with rr/ll could not end with a consonant, but we didn't know it had to begin with one.

(Is that actually the rule?  Or is the rule "cannot occur except after a consonant", which would mean that rr/ll could be a syllable unto themselves if the previous syllable ended with a consonant... although there may be no practical difference between those two rules, since I'm still not sure under what circumstances syllabification matters...)

The test would be what the approbative (laudative) of kxll is.

Send it to him. I predict he'll say "Hmmmm. Good point." and add a glottal stop.  ;)

Offline wm.annis

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2010, 07:34:05 pm »
The test would be what the approbative (laudative) of kxll is.

Send it to him. I predict he'll say "Hmmmm. Good point." and add a glottal stop.  ;)

I guess k‹ei›yll.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2010, 07:51:11 pm »
The test would be what the approbative (laudative) of kxll is.

Send it to him. I predict he'll say "Hmmmm. Good point." and add a glottal stop.  ;)

I guess k‹ei›yll.

I thought of that just now in the shower too. It matches « seiyi ».


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Offline Skyinou

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2010, 02:22:14 am »
The test would be what the approbative (laudative) of kxll is.

Send it to him. I predict he'll say "Hmmmm. Good point." and add a glottal stop.  ;)

I guess k‹ei›yll.

I thought of that just now in the shower too. It matches « seiyi ».


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I think "seiyi" have an "y" because oraly "ii" and "i" are the same. And "sei" is too much shortened.
Then I think of simple "kx<ei>l"
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 03:08:50 am by Skyinou »
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Offline Plumps

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2010, 02:52:59 am »
I thought of it more in terms of the perfective/imperfective forms
When ll & rr cannot occur after a vowel then maybe they lose their semi-vowel quality and become normal consonants as in p<ol>txe
My guess would be *kx<ei>l

Offline Prrton

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Re: tìSutx Krrä fpi Tìrey mìErrta nìNa'vi - A proposal
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2010, 01:56:49 pm »
K. Pawl has the document with the commentary appended that was relevant to the concepts of time. I'm going to de-sticky this for now and lock it. When the "response" comes back, I'll post it here or link it from here depending on what it looks like.

A big ol' « IRAYO » to everyone who collaborated in every way.

  -Prr

 

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