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Offline Txen Seri Unil

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2010, 09:51:47 am »
Kaltxi!

Irayo to all of you for such hard work and great resources!

I may be getting wires crossed here but I'm not sure. Are these worksheets the same that are in the Beginners forum? I downloaded a ZIP file with 10 pdfs for different things - verbs, pronouns, prepositions, and time - which are different from yours. I hate to be a pain but to keep things clear is there a way to state in the first post in this thread that these are not the same worksheets? Also, if you will be putting these over in the Beginners forum should people like me just wait for them to show up as completed and edited documents over there?

Keep up the great work.

-Raw


Old name: Rawveggie. Upgraded to Na'vi name.

Txen Seri Unil = Awake + Make (present continuing tense) + Dream = Waking Dream

"The words are like stones in my heart." -Jake Sully
(Aylì'u lu na tskxe mì oeyä txe'lan. - Na'vi translation from script)

Offline Skxawng

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #81 on: January 05, 2010, 11:23:12 am »
I may be getting wires crossed here but I'm not sure. Are these worksheets the same that are in the Beginners forum? I downloaded a ZIP file with 10 pdfs for different things - verbs, pronouns, prepositions, and time - which are different from yours.

those worksheets were created after the grammer ones were made. They focus on vocabulary only, and are not written by Skxawng and/or Taronyu.  They are not the same.

I hate to be a pain but to keep things clear is there a way to state in the first post in this thread that these are not the same worksheets?
As these are labeled completely differently, laid out completely differently, posted by completely different people and about completely different subjects, a simple download would confirm that these are not the same sheets. That said, i'll put a notifier in both the Intermediate and Beginner topics i've made.

Also, if you will be putting these over in the Beginners forum should people like me just wait for them to show up as completed and edited documents over there?

yes.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 11:41:31 am by Skxawng »


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Offline Skxawng

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #82 on: January 05, 2010, 05:45:28 pm »
Lenition

I'm pretty sure most of this is right ... but as always, comments and corrections are welcome.

now to go pump some iron  8)


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Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #83 on: January 05, 2010, 05:49:47 pm »
Adpositions have a space when before a word they modify and are attached when used after.

You have hu and mì connected in the answers.

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Plumps

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #84 on: January 05, 2010, 06:00:56 pm »
Great work!

Exercise 17) must be oeyä

And just a spelling error on page 1 in your definition of preposition "far as lenition goes is the preoposition" - is this a new category ;D

Otherwise great summary! :)

Offline Skxawng

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2010, 09:14:24 pm »
Adpositions have a space when before a word they modify and are attached when used after.

You have hu and mì connected in the answers.
thanks, fixed.


Exercise 17) must be oeyä

And just a spelling error on page 1 in your definition of preposition "far as lenition goes is the preoposition" - is this a new category ;D

fixed.

Otherwise great summary! :)[/font][/size]
irayo! :D



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Offline Numeyu Aftxavang

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2010, 06:22:10 am »
In 1.3.2 topical/genitive/dative, excercise 10 has a problem
______ tukruhu tserpang pa'li-______
hu means 'with' as in 'alongside something'. "with his spear" here means "by means of/by using (his spear)". The perposition fa would be more appropriate.

here's to hoping i'm not reposting something someone else noticed.
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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2010, 02:31:09 pm »
I think there should be more examples for the topical marker in the context of Na'vi.  For instance Japanese uses a topical marker "wa" for more than "as for", and that language has many grammar particles.  The grammatical term topical can be misleading since it does not match the rules being applied in Na'vi at this time for -ri.

I also think it would be useful to have examples of more interrogative with response components, maybe to help with developing a way of communicating.
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Offline Txon Tsyal

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #88 on: January 07, 2010, 07:11:59 am »
They are a great help to me newermind those few mistakes that leak out. Keep it up  :)

By the way can someone tell me what ma means i can`t find it anywhere...
Personally i don`t take the Na`vi as alien because i think i understand them.

When I look on the news and see what horrible things are happening around the world I can`t help but wonder what is the source of them and therefore my own race is becoming more and more alien to me as time passes by.

Does that make any sense?

Offline Fyawìntxu

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #89 on: January 07, 2010, 08:04:56 am »
   kaltxì ma Txon Tsyal! kaltxì ma smuktu!

   You mean this "ma"? It's the vocative: a particule you use when talking TO some(1 or more) people. But not when you talk ABOUT somebody. It can be used with the name of the people you talk to, or with nouns, as in my example (Hi Txon Tsyal! Hi brothers and sister!)

   Eywa ngahu, sì kìyevame.

Fyawìntxu
Eywa ayngahu ma smuk!

Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #90 on: January 07, 2010, 04:27:00 pm »
   kaltxì ma Txon Tsyal! kaltxì ma smuktu!

   You mean this "ma"? It's the vocative: a particule you use when talking TO some(1 or more) people. But not when you talk ABOUT somebody. It can be used with the name of the people you talk to, or with nouns, as in my example (Hi Txon Tsyal! Hi brothers and sister!)

   Eywa ngahu, sì kìyevame.

Fyawìntxu

Yes, that would be a good Na'vi example I think, "ma" seems like the accepted use for nouns such, but -ri is being used in a similar fashion, and strictly locked there for what I am aware of.  But topical markers can be used on adverbs, or adjectives.  There use is actually second nature for anyone who knows the language that uses them, I think it can trip people up without knowing the Na'vi specific boundaries. 

In Romance languages my examples are considered out of place, but in Japanese these structures are common. 

Adj. Case: "About { sleeping(TOP) | driving(TOP) | chewing(TOP) | speaking(TOP) }, is a good thing to do well."
Adv. Case: "About Now(TOP), is a good time to leave."
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Offline Vrrtep Taronyu

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2010, 08:46:41 am »
Hey Skxawng

Awesome worksheets, it's really nice of you to make these. I came across some gramatical or typing errors in a document, maybe ether you or someone else would care to help me understand which is the correct.

in the following document:
Gender and Laudative / Pejorative

1.)Po____ri lefpoma taronyu lu
She is a happy hunter

4.) Tsa'pa'li-____ lu
That direhorse is female

5.) Oe-l Ngeyäti Kam<____>e ngeyä 'it-____
I see your son, and i'm happy about i!

In the english translation you're missing a t at the end (assume it's supposed to be ... it!)

7.) Po-____-ìl tsamti ft<____>ang ke
He didn't stop the war, sadly.

Tsakrr torukìl oeyä tsmuk-____-ti yìm-____-om.
Then leonopteryx ate my sister, thankfully.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 08:52:50 am by Vrrtep Taronyu »

Offline Skxawng

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2010, 09:39:44 am »
1 - The idea there was to use the laudative, as opposed to the actual verb 'happy'  I suppose I should change it so the translation is a little less superflous

4 - mighta been a typo. I'll look into it

5 - whups lol

7 - whups pt. 2

8 - Ah yes, another artifact of grammatical correction.

Thanks for the fixes, I'll get to them after work.


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Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2010, 08:00:22 pm »
Corrections for the Ergative/Accusative Worksheet:

1.   In #7 kame should be tse’a as you see the fruit physically, not spiritually.
2.   In #9 fatukru should be fa tukru
3.   In #10 ikran-l should be ikran-ìl
4.   In the narrative I would replace kame both times with tse’a as it seems a more physical sense.
5.   In the narrative for “we make the bond” I get “Ayoe-l tsaheylu-ti si” as the bond is a direct object.
6.   In the narrative when you say “I give the ikran a fruit” it should be tìng not ting.
7.   In the words used section asìltsan should be sìltsan.

Corrections for the Lenition Worksheet:

1.   #3 does not match the solution
2.   #5 could also have aysmukan as a solution
3.   #6 should be mì hrrap
4.   #9 should be pepun
5.   For #18 I would use poan for he.  Also, ftu is from a direction(like from the north); if you’re going to use from in a more generic sense I would suggest ta.
6.   In #19 where is hahaw coming from?  I don’t see it in the pocket guide.
7.   In the words used section kxetse is tail not tails, kifkey is world not hifkey, and mikyun is ear not ears.

As a side question are the worksheets on the top of the thread being constantly updated, or do we have to track down the revised ones in the other pages?

Great job on the worksheets!  Thanks for the practice.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline Skxawng

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2010, 09:41:39 pm »
thanks neotrekkerz.

Alright, since these have been up for a while, and I *think* most of the corrections have been made, I'm going to go ahead and put them in the beginner's section for others to use.



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Offline Carborundum

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2010, 02:43:09 pm »
First off, I would just like to say THANK YOU for these. This is excellent learning material, it's helped me a lot. So much, in fact, that I'm going to try correcting some things I think may be wrong.

Worksheet 1.2, Na'vi affixes:

These all come from the final mega question.

#1. Oe-ri po-e-ti tsway<irm>on hu oe-yä 'it-e
      I(TOP) she(ACC) fly(IMPF. REC. PAST) with I(GEN) daughter
      Given translation: I went flying with my sister.
      
I can't see anything in here about a sister. To me it seems to read: I went flying with her, my daughter. I'm also not sure about the topical marker on the first 'oe'. Wouldn't you want an ergative instead?

#2. Oe-yä ikran-ti y<ay>om po-e-yä tsmuk-an
      I(GEN) banshee(ACC) eat(FUT) she(GEN) brother
      Given translation: My banshee was going to eat her brother.

I think what it currently says is 'My banshee will eat her brother'. I'm not sure how to make it 'was going to', but I think either a subjunctive marker, to show possibility, or maybe an imminent future + perfective marker would do the trick.

#3. Toruk-l oe-yä tsmuk-e-ti y<ìm><ei>om

Just a small one here. The ergative marker on toruk should be -ìl, since it ends with a consonant.

#4. Oe-ri tswayon kelku-ti
      I(TOP) fly home(ERG)
      Given translation: I flew home.

Again, I think you might want an ergative marker on 'oe' rather than the topical. Also, the sentence should probably have perfective aspect to show that it is finished.

Edit: see following two posts for some corrections to this. :P
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 09:39:00 am by Carborundum »
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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2010, 05:13:05 pm »
I also think it's a great way of learning and I give a huge irayo to the people who provide us with these materials and put their time and effort in these papers to make our learning a bit more fun.
Nevertheless, we are all human and making errors is only a way so that we can all learn from it.


#1. Oe-ri po-e-ti tsway<irm>on hu oe-yä 'it-e
      I(TOP) she(ACC) fly(IMPF. REC. PAST) with I(GEN) daughter
      Given translation: I went flying with my sister.

I'm also not sure about the form of 'fly' - I think it's in general consent now that it's tswon, the <ay> making it a future form.
I'd say
Oe-l tsw<irm>on oeyä 'it-e=hu / tsmuk-e=hu (which context you prefer)
is enough.
Ma Skxawng, why did you decide on naming 'poe' (my sister/daughter) again?


#2. Oe-yä ikran-ti y<ay>om po-e-yä tsmuk-an
      I(GEN) banshee(ACC) eat(FUT) she(GEN) brother
      Given translation: My banshee was going to eat her brother.

I think what it currently says is 'My banshee will eat her brother'. I'm not sure how to make it 'was going to', but I think either a subjunctive marker, to show possibility, or maybe an imminent future + perfective marker would do the trick.

Actually, the Acc-Marker on ikran is wrong, I think. If that is to be the subject of the sentence then there is no -ti but rather the -ìl ending. And with the infix <ay> it's My banshe will eat her brother.

#4. Oe-ri tswayon kelku-ti
      I(TOP) fly home(ERG)
      Given translation: I flew home.

Again, I think you might want an ergative marker on 'oe' rather than the topical. Also, the sentence should probably have perfective aspect to show that it is finished.

Same with tswon. This form actually makes it: I will fly home. -ti is not *ERG but ACC

Hope that helps :)

Offline Carborundum

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #97 on: January 19, 2010, 09:34:10 am »
#1. Oe-ri po-e-ti tsway<irm>on hu oe-yä 'it-e
      I(TOP) she(ACC) fly(IMPF. REC. PAST) with I(GEN) daughter
      Given translation: I went flying with my sister.

I think it's in general consent now that it's tswon, the <ay> making it a future form.
You're right. I just looked at the word list at the end of the worksheet, where tswayon is translated as 'fly'. It's tswon everywhere else, though.
#2. Oe-yä ikran-ti y<ay>om po-e-yä tsmuk-an
      I(GEN) banshee(ACC) eat(FUT) she(GEN) brother
      Given translation: My banshee was going to eat her brother.

I think what it currently says is 'My banshee will eat her brother'. I'm not sure how to make it 'was going to', but I think either a subjunctive marker, to show possibility, or maybe an imminent future + perfective marker would do the trick.

Actually, the Acc-Marker on ikran is wrong, I think. If that is to be the subject of the sentence then there is no -ti but rather the -ìl ending.
Very true, I missed that. We probably want Oe-yä ikran-ìl y<(tense)>om po-e-yä tsmuk-an-it.
And with the infix <ay> it's My banshe will eat her brother.
That's what I said.
#4. Oe-ri tswayon kelku-ti
      I(TOP) fly home(ERG)
      Given translation: I flew home.

Again, I think you might want an ergative marker on 'oe' rather than the topical. Also, the sentence should probably have perfective aspect to show that it is finished.
-ti is not *ERG but ACC
Right. I knew that.  :P
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Offline Skxawng

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #98 on: January 19, 2010, 02:10:27 pm »
First off, I would just like to say THANK YOU for these. This is excellent learning material, it's helped me a lot. So much, in fact, that I'm going to try correcting some things I think may be wrong.

Show me love via karma  :P  glad I helped :D

#1. Oe-ri po-e-ti tsway<irm>on hu oe-yä 'it-e
      I(TOP) she(ACC) fly(IMPF. REC. PAST) with I(GEN) daughter
      Given translation: I went flying with my sister.
     
I can't see anything in here about a sister. To me it seems to read: I went flying with her, my daughter. I'm also not sure about the topical marker on the first 'oe'. Wouldn't you want an ergative instead?

Your right, I mixed tsmuke and 'ite. The topical marker -ri overrides ergative, and posessive suffixes, though.

I'll try to get around to those fixes tonight, thanks for bringing 'em to my attention :D



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Offline ~Ayngahu

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Re: Worksheets
« Reply #99 on: January 19, 2010, 02:53:14 pm »
EDIT: I started a thread for this question: http://forum.learnnavi.org/beginners/%28top%29-%28dat%29-and-%28gen%29-for-dummies-%28such-as-me%29/msg43438/#msg43438


Kaltxì frapo :)

First, I will share a big thankyou for this collection of worksheets so far :D It's really good having something to exercise with.

And finally, I'm very confused about the whole Oe-ri / Oe-yä thing and why the word that is being possessed gets the genitive marker when the word that IS possessing is the topic.  It seems really backwards, since "Ikranyä wutso" is correct (I think!) for "The ikran's meal," why does "My father" become "Oeri sempulyä"?

My words exactly! I read through this thread and found no answers to this question (which is now bugging me quite abit). Basically, I got only 1/14 correct (by luck of guess) in worksheet 1.3.2 - Cases; it puzzled me so much that I weren't able to learn anything from it. I read around the forums but didn't find anything, so posting here. Help appreciated.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 03:51:07 pm by Ayngahu »
A big thankyou to DrBinder for creating my forum avatar :)

 

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