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X a soli Y

Started by Tìtstewan, January 09, 2014, 01:39:39 PM

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Tìtstewan

Well, there is a weird but interesting grammatical question regarding X a s<ol>i.
Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 09, 2014, 12:28:59 PM
Quote from: Plumps on January 09, 2014, 11:53:42 AM
Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 09, 2014, 10:33:52 AM
Oel tse'a kemit a soli oe fìtseng.
I see a action what I did here.
=> I'm still not sure whether this is really valid...
Somewhere it was written about this, but I can't find it [*on searching*]. Tirea Aean has used it quite often.

I searched a bit and found only indirect stuff, but nothing valid.
But I think, here is the origin of that X a soli Y thing:
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on April 05, 2011, 12:39:37 PM
HOWEVER, it is possible for si to stand on its own if context is clear, but "*kawkem ke tsun oe sivi" is not how.  My favorite example of si taking from context is "Oel tsole'a kemit a nga soli tsatsenge" - I see what you did there.  The example Frommer gave (As reported in http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/auxilary-verb-si-possessive-dative-krr/) is..

Nga tsap'alute soli srak?
Did you apologize?
Soli.
(I) did (apologize).

I believe this is a question, that better goes to K. Pawl. Anyway, I would likely know how "I see you what you did there" should be translated if that [a soli] isn't possible.

I thought something about this:
Oel tse'a ngat(i) a kem soli nga tsatseng.
Lit.: I see you what action you did there.



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Kemaweyan

#1
Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 09, 2014, 01:39:39 PM
Nga tsap'alute soli srak?
Did you apologize?
Soli.
(I) did (apologize).

Right. Also we have a phrase in the movie:

 Tsu'tey! Rä'ä si!

There is si without kem or another word (message Sireayä mokri in Russian. Yeah, there was a topic about this question in Russian :) ).

And I remember that there was a confirmation that it's correct, but I can't found that.

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 09, 2014, 01:39:39 PM
I thought something about this:
Oel tse'a ngat(i) a kem soli nga tsatsengur.
Lit.: I see you what action you did there.


I don't agree with this. What means kem soli tsatsengur? :-\

UPD:

Actually Plumps found this topic. So X a si Y is correct ;)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Plumps on January 09, 2014, 01:25:57 PM
Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 09, 2014, 01:02:34 PM
Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 09, 2014, 12:28:59 PM
Somewhere it was written about this, but I can't find it [*on searching*]. Tirea Aean has used it quite often.
I remember it too, but also can't find :(

I found it. It was used by Omängum and K. Pawl deemed it "lì'fyavi lesar". That's as good as a blessing ;D
:-\ hm, totally forgot about that :P
This.

---
Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 09, 2014, 01:54:26 PM
I don't agree with this. What means kem soli tsatsengur? :-\
...did action there?

Nevermind

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 09, 2014, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 09, 2014, 01:54:26 PM
I don't agree with this. What means kem soli tsatsengur? :-\
...did action there?

Nevermind

It should be just tsatsenge ;) Without dative :)

Tìsung. :D :D :D

Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

Yeah, I was posting in the other thread, but was ninja'd by you. Simultaneously, in another tab, I was going to add that quote from Plumps to this place too, but also been ninja'd by you. ;D

Ninja points for you!  ;D

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Plumps

#5
Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 09, 2014, 01:54:26 PMAlso we have a phrase in the movie:

 Tsu'tey! Rä'ä si!

There is si without kem or another word (message Sireayä mokri in Russian. Yeah, there was a topic about this question in Russian :) ).
Can't remember this.
The only instance I remember (which is butchered in the German version :P ) is when Tsu'tey says to Jake on Iknimaya tsakem rä'ä si (which sounds like tsakem ratsi in the dubbed version) – so there we have the kem si construct again.

EDIT: found it mentioned on the Wiki - Lines from the Movie. But can't remember that line for the life of me :P

What's interesting though about these Noun-si-constructs is that they seem to be much more flexible than I thought. It comes down to what Omängum gave us in April '11 concerning the context and an already established si-construct. Doing a bit of digging and I found:

Fwa tsyìl Ayramit Alusìng lu sä'eoio a zene frapo sivi fte slivu taronyu.
"Climbing Iknimaya is a ritual that everyone has to perform to become a hunter."

So, since sä'eoio si exists as a si-construct, it can be used to insert a relative clause or to leave it out in the respective clause to avoid repetition => Fwa tsyìl Ayramit Alusìng lu sä'eoio a zene frapo {kem} sivi fte slivu taronyu.

:) Eltur tìtxen si

Tìtstewan

*deleted my previous post and re-posted it by this one*

Is this mentioned in the Horen too? (just for curiousity)

------

Should we modify the definition on LN wiki?
Word Order Restrictions
Quote

  • A si verb will always have the word order X si or, negated, X ke si or X rä'ä si (where X is the noun or adjective element).

    • The sole exception is irayo si, which can have the order disrupted somewhat.

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 09, 2014, 02:59:56 PM
Should we modify the definition on LN wiki?
Word Order Restrictions
Quote

  • A si verb will always have the word order X si or, negated, X ke si or X rä'ä si (where X is the noun or adjective element).

    • The sole exception is irayo si, which can have the order disrupted somewhat.


That's about word order and it's completely correct. But if there is no noun or adjective element, just say si (or ke si, or rä'ä si).
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

#8
Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 09, 2014, 03:03:57 PM
But if there is no noun or adjective element, just say si (or ke si, or rä'ä si).
I'm going to add this, if ok?

Edit: Tsakem soli. :)
(backup done before changing)

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Kemaweyan

Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Plumps on January 09, 2014, 02:15:41 PM
me :P

What's interesting though about these Noun-si-constructs is that they seem to be much more flexible than I thought. It comes down to what Omängum gave us in April '11 concerning the context and an already established si-construct. Doing a bit of digging and I found:

Fwa tsyìl Ayramit Alusìng lu sä'eoio a zene frapo sivi fte slivu taronyu.
"Climbing Iknimaya is a ritual that everyone has to perform to become a hunter."

So, since sä'eoio si exists as a si-construct, it can be used to insert a relative clause or to leave it out in the respective clause to avoid repetition => Fwa tsyìl Ayramit Alusìng lu sä'eoio a zene frapo {kem} sivi fte slivu taronyu.

:) Eltur tìtxen si[/size][/font]

Very interesting. In the example you gave above, does the si truly stand alone (with the implied kem), or is it somehow related to the säʼeoio before the attributive a? Is the kem implied in all such X a s(ol)i Y constructions?

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Plumps

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on January 10, 2014, 03:19:29 AM
Quote from: Plumps on January 09, 2014, 02:15:41 PM

Fwa tsyìl Ayramit Alusìng lu sä'eoio a zene frapo sivi fte slivu taronyu.
"Climbing Iknimaya is a ritual that everyone has to perform to become a hunter."


Very interesting. In the example you gave above, does the si truly stand alone (with the implied kem), or is it somehow related to the säʼeoio before the attributive a? Is the kem implied in all such X a s(ol)i Y constructions?

Actually, I thought about this too. I had sä'eoio as an alternative ... zene frapo sä'eoio sivi fte slivu taronyu means "everybody must perform a ritual in order to become a hunter". I realise, yesterday I mixed that up with ftxozä si in my head for some reason :P
So, yes, sure it could be sä'eoio si as well as kem si.

I think, underling every X si construct is ultimately a kem, isn't it ;)

In a way it's very well represented by the English phrase. The dictionary gives it as "perform a ritual" and the sentence gives "Climbing Iknimaya is a ritual that everyone has to perform to become a hunter." If we take the definition 1:1 we'd arrive at "Climbing Iknimaya is a ritual that everyone has to {perform a ritual} to become a hunter." In English also, we think that this is redundant, so it's left out. I think, Na'vi treats it the same way. To avoid double phrasing.

I could imagine things like...

Sunu oer hìnoa tsayioi alor a tsafa nga säpoli.
"I like those intricate, beautiful clothes that you adorned yourself with."

Blue Elf

AFAIK simple usage of si depends on context. You can use it alone only if you know from previous conversation to which word was si connected before (so what word was omitted).

Nga tsap'alute soli srak?
(Tsap'alute) Soli.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Whic brings up a really important point-- or issue: These 'free si' constructions can only be used with nouns that have a -si verb form. Since the attachment of -si to a noun is non-productive, this cannot be used to coin new -si verbs.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Plumps

Exactly so :)

You have to know that sä'eoio has a si form and what it is in order to understand it.

Also, apart from the usage first described by K. Pawl, where we are in a conversation and one responds to a statement either by s(ol)i "yes" or ke s(ol)i "no", the other instances need to be noun-based si verbs because they are explained by a.

Srake nga win säpoli fteke pivähem hawngkrr?
     Did you hurry not to arrive late?
Säpoli.
     Yes.

But I can't think of an example, like the sä'eoio si example above, i.e. in a sentence, with an adjective-based si verb. Which is also not possible, I think, since a has to attach to a noun, right? :)

Tìtstewan

#15
Oel omum fìsä'eoiot a soli nga.
I know this ceremony which you did.

Suneiu ayoer tsaway a seri nga.
We like that song which you are singing.

I think, this works only with noun based si-verbs...and since the noun part of a si-verb is modifiable, why they can't shouldn't be "modyfied" just by a?

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on January 10, 2014, 04:11:20 PM
I think, this works only with noun based si-verbs...and since the noun part of a si-verb is modifiable, why they can't shouldn't be "modyfied" just by a?

I think we must look at the meaning. Maybe this rule is applicable here too. So I think way si could not be used in this way :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

On the contrary, I think Titstewan's Suneiu ayoer tsaway a seri nga. is an almost ideal way that this attribution rule is supposed to be applied. This sentence can be analyzed as Suneiu ayoer tsaway a (way) seri nga. Although using tsa- in this way is a tad unfamiliar, the sentence makes sense, it follows K. Pawl's rules for affixing/prepending -si construction verbs, and as far as I know, does not violate any other grammar or syntax rules.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tìtstewan

#18
Well, just think a version, without tsa-...




I got a weird idea: how is the situation, if in a sentence are two si-verbs?

Oer sunu kem sì way a nga soli.
I like the action and the song which you did.

Well, I know this is so strange and so wrong that everybody would eat me alife. :P

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Kemaweyan

Just replace way si with kelku si:

  Sunu oer kelku a nga si.

It does not make sense. I think way si is a similar verb and it's idiomatic. So Oer sunu way a nga soli does not make sense for me.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D