A collection of questions answered

Started by wm.annis, October 25, 2022, 08:10:32 PM

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wm.annis

I chatted with Karyu Pawl this evening about some things in the Horen I thought it would be useful to verify before the next release. This is a summary of the answers to those questions. He said a few of these will probably appear in expanded form on his blog in the near future.

1) You cannot drop 'efu in rapid speech (it would be mistaken for lu)

2) The genitives of the 3rd person honorifics are: poheyä, poheyä, pohanä. Note that the gender neutral and the feminine have the same written genitive form (although the stress will be different). He didn't think this was a problem.

3) pevul which branch?
payvul which branches?
mì fevul in which branch?

There's a potential confusion when we get to — mì fayvul in these branches vs. mì fayvul? in which branches? Paul doesn't think this a fatal confusion, since we have mì ayvulpe available if confusion seems likely.

He also reconfirmed for me that an adposition when used as a suffix not only doesn't cause lenition in the word it's attached to, it doesn't lenite the following word, for constituency reasons. I've written this as a rule in the Horen already, but haven't been able to find the citation for it.

4) Using the ye'rìn with the immediate future (such as lìyu) was called "an unnecessary redundancy" (although he uses exactly this pairing in at least one blog post :) )  But ye'rìn layu is ok. It's just not as soon as lìyu.

5) An expression for "bleed" — pori reypay wrrza'u.

6) He blessed olo'tu as a shorter version of hapxìtu olo'ä (I asked about this because I wanted to use lì'fyaolo'tu member of the speaker community, which was also okayed).

7) I asked a rather technical question about subjecthood:

Quote from: wm.annisWe can drop subjects between clauses in English:

    I went home and _ went to bed.

In languages like Icelandic, with lots of dative experiencer subjects,
you can do the same thing even with a dative in a subject-like
"experiencer role." How much can we assume in Na'vi that the same
subject applies across clauses joined with ulte (or just the next
sentence), and can I do this —

   Oeru lu upxare ulte _ zene tivätaw. "I have messages and _ must return."
   Teylu sunu oer. Yom pxìm! "I like teylu. (I) eat (it) often!"

Again context is in play here. He says both of these examples are fine, because the context makes the interpretation clear.

Two maroon items in the Horen (which represent open questions):

8 ) Confirmed: monosyllables that end in -e do not elide the e in normal speech, such as ke, sre. (The fact that an elision like komum from ke omum requires a special dictionary entry is confirmation of the rule.) Similarly, stressed final -e (such as poe) will not elide.

9) For the formal first person inclusive pronoun, while the ohe ngengasì form is fine (if a bit wordy), just adding an h to the non-formal oeng > oheng for the full paradigm is most straightforward (and accords with a ohengeyä that occurs in the film).

Vawmataw

Thank you very for this interesting load of new information! 'Ivong Na'vi has never ceased to be true.
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Traducteur francophone de Kelutral.org, dict-navi et Reykunyu

Wllìm

#2
Woeiu, irayo!

Quote from: wm.annis on October 25, 2022, 08:10:32 PM2) The genitives of the 3rd person honorifics are: poheyä, poheyä, pohanä. Note that the gender neutral and the feminine have the same written genitive form (although the stress will be different). He didn't think this was a problem.
Do we know if these honorific pronouns also have dual, trial, and plural forms? Does pxefoho exist? Similarly, does ayoheng exist?

Quote from: wm.annis on October 25, 2022, 08:10:32 PM6) He blessed olo'tu as a shorter version of hapxìtu olo'ä (I asked about this because I wanted to use lì'fyaolo'tu member of the speaker community, which was also okayed).
Are these stressed as o-lo'-tu and lì'-fya-o-lo'-tu? I'm like 99% sure of this (I've checked all -tu words in the dictionary, literally none of them is stressed on the -tu) but it would still be nice to get official confirmation to make sure it's correct in the dictionaries ;)

Toliman


wm.annis


wm.annis

Quote from: Wllìm on October 26, 2022, 01:30:39 AM
Do we know if these honorific pronouns also have dual, trial, and plural forms? Does pxefoho exist? Similarly, does ayoheng exist?

I did not ask about the number of the third person honorifics, but I'm not sure why they'd not be as expected. But ayoheng definitely exists.

QuoteAre these stressed as o-lo'-tu and lì'-fya-o-lo'-tu? I'm like 99% sure of this (I've checked all -tu words in the dictionary, literally none of them is stressed on the -tu) but it would still be nice to get official confirmation to make sure it's correct in the dictionaries ;)

Correct. The -tu didn't shift the stress from the base forms.

Zángtsuva

Quote
Are these stressed as o-lo'-tu and lì'-fya-o-lo'-tu? I'm like 99% sure of this (I've checked all -tu words in the dictionary, literally none of them is stressed on the -tu) but it would still be nice to get official confirmation to make sure it's correct in the dictionaries ;)

ììì I just noticed that Fwew and Reykunyu have the stress as lì'-fya-o-lo' whereas Plumps' annotated dictionary has lì'-fya-o-lo'... So which is it?

wm.annis

Quote from: Zángtsuva on October 26, 2022, 04:36:49 PM

ììì I just noticed that Fwew and Reykunyu have the stress as lì'-fya-o-lo' whereas Plumps' annotated dictionary has lì'-fya-o-lo'... So which is it?

dict-navi has what I recall as the correct accenting: lì'fyaolo', namely a major and minor stress in the word. I have no idea how that got into my mind, and I can't find a citation for it. Edit: I think this is a word Prrton came up with very early, and which was accepted by Paul - it shows up very early - but without accenting I can find.