Author Topic: a poetic license and a note on adposition position  (Read 1169 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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a poetic license and a note on adposition position
« on: March 17, 2012, 12:28:57 pm »
A few days ago I asked Pawl about a possible variation possessive word order.  One consequence of this is that he made a very clear statement in support of something most of us have suspected but never had overt confirmation on, regarding suffixed adpositions (highlighted in maroon):

Quote from: K. Pawl
So for ordinary usage I think we should star Gen Adp NP is a potential variant of Adp Gen NP and Adp NP Gen, or better, reserve it for poetry.

As for other variants, I think we all agree that Gen NP+Adp and NP+Adp Gen are both OK? oeyä tsyokxfa and tsyokxfa oeyä?

BTW, the reason a postpositive Adp can separate a N and Adj, as in fìtrrmì lestranten, is by analogy with N+case Adj.

For example, we have fìtrrä letsranten 'of this important day.' I thought of a postpositive Adp (well, at least ) as a quasi-case . . . and in fact in some languages (Finnish, say?) it would actually count as a case, right? So . . .

fìtrrä letsranten ~ fìtrrmì lestranten

So, for the purposes of genitives and attributive adjectives with nouns, a suffixed adposition patterns like case.

The question I was asking about was the possibility of a variant word order.  I came up with it for a LEP sentence, but changed it back to something reasonable later.  We know that fa oeyä tsyokx and oeyä tsyokxfa both work for "with my hand."  I wondered if oeyä fa tsyokx might be possible.  It is, sort of...

Quote from: K. Pawl
I'm happy to allow your word order proposal in poetry. As you noted, we already have examples of poetic or ceremonial w.o. that one wouldn't be likely to find in conversation.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Kamean

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Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2012, 02:05:28 pm »
Irayo ma wm.annis. :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2012, 10:19:52 am »
Irayo :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

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Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2012, 05:43:06 pm »
The question I was asking about was the possibility of a variant word order.  I came up with it for a LEP sentence, but changed it back to something reasonable later.  We know that fa oeyä tsyokx and oeyä tsyokxfa both work for "with my hand."  I wondered if oeyä fa tsyokx might be possible.

Informative indeed and thanks for giving this piece of information to us…

Do you know, or what’s your ’en on the matter ;) how far we could stretch this in normal ‘prose’ style / conversation, to wit, could we say:

     fa oeyä tsawla tsyokx ???

Apart from another attributive adjective after tsyokx, this is the biggest possible span between ADP and NP that I can think of, kefyak? Would that still be allowed?

Offline wm.annis

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Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 06:30:03 pm »
Do you know, or what’s your ’en on the matter ;) how far we could stretch this in normal ‘prose’ style / conversation, to wit, could we say:

     fa oeyä tsawla tsyokx ???

This too me looks perfectly normal and acceptable.

Quote
Apart from another attributive adjective after tsyokx, this is the biggest possible span between ADP and NP that I can think of, kefyak? Would that still be allowed?

Well, it's important to say that adpositions go with noun phrases — that's the noun along with any attributive adjectives or genitives.  In normal prose, they go before the entire phrase, however big, or are suffixed to the noun, case-like.  Very early in our Na'vi language history, I used this sentence at Pawl, which he accepted as elegant,

  Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx.

The possessive is separated from the noun by an attributive clause.  Even with something like that, I'd expect the prepositional use of an adposition to be fine, in front of ngeyä.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Plumps

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Re: a poetic license and a note on adposition position
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2012, 03:13:08 pm »
Right, thanks … that’s interesting.
Once we reach this kind of style in conversation, I’ll be happy :D

 

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