Author Topic: Affective Obligation (zenke)  (Read 1519 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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Affective Obligation (zenke)
« on: September 05, 2011, 04:16:18 pm »
We know that the modal for "negative obligation" is zenke, as in nga zenke kivä you must not go ([1]).  It is pretty obviously derived from zene ke.  But I was curious how to cope with the 2nd position infixes, since I was uncomfortable with the idea that the ke element would get an infix.  So I asked.  Here's what Pawl said about it,

Quote from: Karyu Pawl
Zenke. Interesting question. I went back and forth on this one. But since the word is clearly from original *zeneke, there would probably also have been a form *zenängeke with a second-position infix. This one too would evolve to lose the e by syncope:

That is: *zenängeke > zenängke. [Stress remains in the first syllable.]

In the same way: *zolenängeke > zolenängke, *zayeneieke > zayeneike, etc.

Note, however, that with the ceremonial ‹uy› and suppositional ‹ats› the e does not go away, since the resulting syllable would be illegal, so zolenuyeke and zolenatseke.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 04:20:18 pm »
Irayo :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 05:21:30 pm »
Most interesting!
I was wondering about that as well.

The list of verbs that behave outside ‘the norm’ gets bigger :P

Now, all I want is a confirmation on kenongtsakrr, ’ayefu ye … kxawm :P

Offline Kamean

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 05:50:43 pm »
Irayo seiyi!  :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Seze Mune

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 05:56:38 pm »
Way beyond my competence at the moment, but I know I will appreciate it in time. :D

Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 08:24:53 am »
Sìltsan, I always like to see some exceptions to general rules :)
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Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 08:31:49 pm »
Way beyond my competence at the moment, but I know I will appreciate it in time. :D
Basically this boils down to a word that doesn't behave like we think it should.

In Na'vi the infixes mostly all are followed by vowels. However, in zeneke the infixes cause the word to lose an "e" resulting in the infixes being followed by a consonant. That's all that's really going on here, a word that has an unusual form. This is a good thing, natural languages have many unusual forms and words.

Edit: Fixed my silly mistake, that's what I get for skimming posts.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 09:37:20 am by Ftiafpi »

Offline Seze Mune

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 08:38:08 pm »
That's all that's really going on here, a "compound" word that has an unusual form. This is a good thing, natural languages have many unusual forms and words.

A linguist's spice in life, kefyak? ;)

Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 11:00:12 pm »
Kinda related: how would one infix <ei> in pllngay?  I would expect a y after the <ei> since no Na'vi pseudovowel can stand alone.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 11:37:24 pm »
Kinda related: how would one infix <ei> in pllngay?  I would expect a y after the <ei> since no Na'vi pseudovowel can stand alone.



Hmm.. interesting.. Probably you're right :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 02:13:11 am »
Ke by itself normally can't take infixes but in zenke (which is obviously from two words, zene (must) and ke (not)) you have the infixes going in the second syllable (the "ke" part). That's all that's really going on here, a "compound" word that has an unusual form. This is a good thing, natural languages have many unusual forms and words.

Not quite, look closer. The really interesting part is that the infix of the second position go before the ke part, i.e. before a consonant and that is highly unusual in Na’vi :)

Offline Nyx

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 06:12:02 am »
Very interesting. Thanks for the update

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Affective Obligation (zenke)
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2011, 09:32:18 am »
Ke by itself normally can't take infixes but in zenke (which is obviously from two words, zene (must) and ke (not)) you have the infixes going in the second syllable (the "ke" part). That's all that's really going on here, a "compound" word that has an unusual form. This is a good thing, natural languages have many unusual forms and words.

Not quite, look closer. The really interesting part is that the infix of the second position go before the ke part, i.e. before a consonant and that is highly unusual in Na’vi :)

Oh, my mistake. I fixed my post.

 

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