Author Topic: all adpositions  (Read 4099 times)

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Offline roger

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all adpositions
« on: March 10, 2010, 09:00:03 pm »
Paul has now released the full set of adpositions. Most of them you already know, but there are several new ones. We now also know which cause lenition and which don't.

Those not causing lenition are:

äo     below
eo    before, in front of (place)
io    above
uo    behind
(all stressed on the first vowel)

fa       with (by means of)
ftu       from (direction)    [irregular "ftu sat" with the word "tsa" 'that']   
hu       with (accompaniment)
ka       across
kip       among
fkip       up among
kxamlä    through (via the middle of)  [note that it does not cause lenition despite the fact that its component ilä does]
lok       close to [also a verb 'to approach']
luke       without
maw       after (time)
kam    between
mungwrr    except
ne       to (direction)
nemfa    into
pxaw       around
sìn       on, onto (?) [question mark in the original, evidently not yet decided]
ta       from (various uses)
takip       from among
tafkip    from up among
teri       about, concerning
vay       up to


Those causing lenition are:

fpi    for (the benefit or sake of)
ìlä    by, via, following       [stressed on either syllable]
mì    in
ro    at
sre    before (time)
wä    against (as in: fight against)

Paul included na and pxel, both "like, as", among the non-leniting adp. I don't see how they're adpositions. Perhaps they can occur as suffixes, which AFAIK we haven't yet seen?

ADDENDUM

We get two new temporal adverbs derived from these: mawkrr "after, afterwards" and srekrr "before" (& presumably "beforehand"). There is no lenition in the latter; F does not like the sound of *srehrr.

Paul confirms that ftu does not cause lenition apart from sat. Or rather, Ftu is indeed ADP-. "Ftu sat" is an exception.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 12:13:01 pm by roger »

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 09:12:46 pm »
Tewti!  Set tsun awnga pivlltxe tsenge a fì'uro tok!
Wow!  Now we can say where we are at!
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 09:18:37 pm »
ro    at

I asked for clarification about this, since the word "at" has about a zillion uses in English.  Frommer said, "Ro is purely locative: ro fäpa 'at the top,' ro helku 'at home.'"
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
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Offline Meuia te Stxeli Tstew'itan

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 09:23:52 pm »
EPIC WOOT'NES!

I can't wait to see all of those added to Taronyu's dictionary!
Fìtsenge kifkey nìswey livu txo ayoe nìNa'vi perlltxeie. Ngal 'awstengyem olo'it fpi tskxekeng.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2010, 04:14:05 am »
I can't wait to see all of those added to Taronyu's dictionary!

Done.

Offline Plumps

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 04:57:45 am »
ro    at

I asked for clarification about this, since the word "at" has about a zillion uses in English.  Frommer said, "Ro is purely locative: ro fäpa 'at the top,' ro helku 'at home.'"

First of all! YAY ... we need a word for "cool" (in the hip sense) so that we can say  Karyu Pawl *cool* lu :D

Is fäpa one of the words that's part of the full list of vocab?
Or is it *päpa? ;)

Any way, thanks for sharing!

Offline Taronyu

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 05:19:23 am »
pa is one of the new words, yes.

Offline roger

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 05:23:46 am »
Note in the NYT article yesterday nemfa was explained as ne mì+fa. I believe that fa is the pa in fäpa.

And the f in fkip looks like it may be the fä.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:03:36 pm by roger »

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 10:37:22 am »
Tewti! Irayo nìtxan seiyi oe. Mipa aylì'u frakrr oeru prrte' leiu :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 06:15:05 pm »
Doesn't ftu lenit? In Taronyu's dictionary, it does.

Offline roger

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 06:17:36 pm »
Doesn't ftu lenit? In Taronyu's dictionary, it does.

I think we assumed it does because of the behaviour of tsaw --> sat. But that's just irregular, and our guess was wrong. Either that or Frommer made an error here, but he sorted the adp. by whether they lenit or not, so I'd expect him to catch an oversight like that. I'll ask.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 06:19:51 pm by roger »

Offline Fnua Atxkxe

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 06:24:31 pm »
I've been wanting a list like this for a while. Will be very useful. Oe lu lefpom :D

At the top it says "the full set adpositions". Will this be all of them or might we get more in the future?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 06:26:14 pm by fnua atxkxe »
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Oe kamä ìlä oeyä txe´lan ulte fìtsenge leiu oel hu ayngati ma oeyä smukan sì smuke ulte nga ma Coga, nì´ul to fra´u ^_^

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 06:26:46 pm »
I think we assumed it does because of the behaviour of tsaw --> sat. But that's just irregular, and our guess was wrong. Either that or Frommer made an error here, but he sorted the adp. by whether they lenit or not, so I'd expect him to catch an oversight like that. I'll ask.

Good. But, why do so few lenit? Is there a pattern between what does?

Offline roger

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 06:31:38 pm »
At the top it says "the full set adpositions". Will this be all of them or might we get more in the future?

That's all that Frommer's come up with so far. There are suggestions for more we might present to him, but I don't know what he'll do with them.

Offline Fnua Atxkxe

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2010, 06:37:30 pm »
Irayo, oe tsap'alute, haven't kept up with much of the new stuff recently as I have been busy. That's why I find this list so useful. Makes it easy to memorize.
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Oe kamä ìlä oeyä txe´lan ulte fìtsenge leiu oel hu ayngati ma oeyä smukan sì smuke ulte nga ma Coga, nì´ul to fra´u ^_^

Offline roger

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2010, 06:37:59 pm »
Good. But, why do so few lenit? Is there a pattern between what does?

I assume it's just a relic of historical change. Often "core" forms are irregular, so we might expect only basic/highly frequent preps to lenit. (And note that a derivative of a leniting adp. does not itself lenit.) Also, even among the most common adp, there may once have been some conditioning factor that's since been lost, so that only some of them caused the change.

Look at case in English: we only have an oblique in personal pronouns, no longer in nouns or demonstrative PNs, and even among the personal PNs not in "you" or "it".

Offline roger

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 02:47:45 am »
updating the posting w two temporal adverbs derived from these: mawkrr "after, afterwards"; srekrr "before" (& presumably "beforehand")

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 02:54:27 am »
I presume srekrr (Interesting it's not srehrr) would be used like...

Oe tsakem soli srekrr
I've done that before
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline roger

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 03:22:30 am »
I presume srekrr (Interesting it's not srehrr) would be used like...

Oe tsakem soli srekrr
I've done that before

Good catch. That might be a typo or an oversight: I certainly would expect srehrr, now that you've pointed it out.

I can only guess, but I think your e.g. is probly correct.

Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: all adpositions
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2010, 05:26:49 am »
Can someone enlighten me please as to the precise meaning of ka and kxamlä?

Is ka used in a sense of "walk across the room" or "live across the street?"

Is kxämla "I enter, I walk across, and I come out on the other side" or rather "walk across the room?" Maybe both? Also, how literal is the through the middle part?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 05:30:54 am by tsrräfkxätu »
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