Author Topic: Another email from Frommer  (Read 2799 times)

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Offline suomichris

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Another email from Frommer
« on: January 30, 2010, 11:19:13 pm »
Sorry if someone else started a thread for this email already; I didn't see one.  This email was actually a response to someone else's question, but it looks like it got CC'd to several folks who had asked similar things.  Here 'tis:

Quote
Ngeyä txantsana tìpawmìri ngaru seiyi oe irayo.

[txantsan = excellent]

A number of people have asked about this, so let me explain:

There's a small class of "fused" infixes that combine the common -iv- subjunctive/dependent verb infix with those that indicate tense and aspect. It goes like this:

PRESENT IMPERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + IMPERFECT -er- --> -irv-
PRESENT PERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + PERFECT -ol- --> -ilv-
PAST SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + PAST PROXIMATE -ìm- or PAST GENERAL -am- --> -imv-

I think you can see what's happening here: the CONSONANT of the tense or aspect infix is shoved into the middle of the -iv- infix--an infix in an infix, if you will.

With the future subjunctive, there's a slight complication:

FUTURE SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + FUTURE PROXIMATE -ìy- or FUTURE GENERAL -ay- --> *-iyv-

The problem is that although a syllable can end with r, l, or m, it can't end with y (unless it's part of a diphthong, which iy is not). That would violate the phonotactic constraints of Na'vi. So an epenthetic vowel comes to the rescue: -iyev-

An alternate form of this fused infix has arisen: -ìyev-. As an instance of vowel harmony (rare in Na'vi), the high front tense vowel i has become lax (ì) under the influence of the lax vowel e in the following syllable. Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable.

So that's a very long-winded explanation of why Kìyevame means: "May (we) See (each other again) in the future."

Sìlpey oe, oeyä tì'eyng law livu ngar!

Offline TorukMakto!

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 11:23:34 pm »
Irayo!
I guess this is the only way to get more info and insight of the language due to Fox limtations.
Dr. Fommer seems like a nice person, I'd say keep on sending those insightful emails with question and little by little get re knowledge of the language.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2010, 07:09:39 am »
Awesome, thanks for sharing!  Added to the Canon: http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Fused_-iv-_Infixes

  - Eri

Offline Skyinou

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 07:17:39 am »
That's great!
We just need to know about PAST/FUTUR + PERFECTIVE now
And triple infixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example? ;D

Thanks for the mail!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 07:33:49 am by Skyinou »
Let's rock with The Tanners!

Offline Mirri

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 07:25:32 am »
The problem is that although a syllable can end with r, l, or m, it can't end with y (unless it's part of a diphthong, which iy is not). That would violate the phonotactic constraints of Na'vi. So an epenthetic vowel comes to the rescue: -iyev-

An alternate form of this fused infix has arisen: -ìyev-. As an instance of vowel harmony (rare in Na'vi), the high front tense vowel i has become lax (ì) under the influence of the lax vowel e in the following syllable. Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable.


Ouch x.x
I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 07:25:47 am »
And triple inixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example? ;D

Oh, good.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who went from "yay!  an Epistle from Frommer" immediately to "wait, what's a future perfective subjunctive going to be?"
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 07:29:43 am »
I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."

Tsa'u nìlaw lam — that seems clear.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline DrBinder

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 10:19:37 am »
Well, I'm glad this got cleared up.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 11:04:02 am »
I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."
Yup, he cleared that up in an email this morning.  Here's the text:

Quote
Ma oeyä eylan,

Tsap’alute, mì upxare a fpole’ oel ayngaru trram lu kxeyey:

KEYAWR:
Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable

EYAWR:
Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable

Irayo ’eylanur awngeyä Prrton a kxeyeyti rolun.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 11:05:23 am »
That's great!
We just need to know about PAST/FUTUR + PERFECTIVE now
And triple infixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example? ;D

Thanks for the mail!
He does say that there are a "small number" of fused ones, so I wonder if most of the others won't just be one infix after another?

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 11:18:52 am »
Quote
Ma oeyä eylan,

Tsap'alute, mì upxare a fpole' oel ayngaru trram lu kxeyey:

KEYAWR:
Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable

EYAWR:
Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable

Irayo 'eylanur awngeyä Prrton a kxeyeyti rolun.

Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?

// Lance R. Casey

Offline suomichris

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 11:20:08 am »
Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?
Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p

Offline TorukMakto!

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 12:11:47 pm »
Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?
Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p

What is your guess about the translation of those new words?

Offline suomichris

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 12:14:50 pm »
Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?
Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p

What is your guess about the translation of those new words?
Well, eyawr certainly looks like correct.  run, though, could be any number of things, I think: "find, notice, point out, correct, etc."  Hard to say without a translation/context.  I am kind of hoping it's "find," since that would be a great word to have!

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 12:16:34 pm »
Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?
Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p

What is your guess about the translation of those new words?
Well, eyawr certainly looks like correct.  run, though, could be any number of things, I think: "find, notice, point out, correct, etc."  Hard to say without a translation/context.  I am kind of hoping it's "find," since that would be a great word to have!

Finally we can stop misusing muiä!

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline suomichris

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2010, 01:07:42 pm »
Just heard back from Frommer.  run means "find, discover."

Yay a verb for "find"!!

Offline Mirri

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2010, 03:09:28 pm »
I didn't think it was worth bothering Frommer over something that was clearly a typo, but we got two new words out of it, so YAY!  ;D
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2010, 05:24:03 pm »
wow, this fills a big gap, awesome.

Offline Prrton

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2010, 10:43:01 pm »
Just heard back from Frommer.  run means "find, discover."

Yay a verb for "find"!!

I was just about to double-check with him on run. I took it to mean "find" when I first saw it, but all of the other "options" were certainly valid ideas earlier in the thread today too. It makes sense to me as something as basic as "find" because it's so short and such a critical concept in any human language.

  Trr aylrrtokä!

           ;D

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Offline Mirri

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Re: Another email from Frommer
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2010, 11:15:57 am »
Just heard back from Frommer.  run means "find, discover."

Yay a verb for "find"!!

I was just about to double-check with him on run. I took it to mean "find" when I first saw it, but all of the other "options" were certainly valid ideas earlier in the thread today too. It makes sense to me as something as basic as "find" because it's so short and such a critical concept in any human language.

  Trr aylrrtokä!

           ;D

__________________

Evidently a passionate conversation is not a very basic concept then, ftxavanga pängkxo.
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

 

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