Another email from Frommer

[suomichris]

Sorry if someone else started a thread for this email already; I didn't see one.  This email was actually a response to someone else's question, but it looks like it got CC'd to several folks who had asked similar things.  Here 'tis:

Ngeyä txantsana tìpawmìri ngaru seiyi oe irayo.

[txantsan = excellent]

A number of people have asked about this, so let me explain:

There's a small class of "fused" infixes that combine the common -iv- subjunctive/dependent verb infix with those that indicate tense and aspect. It goes like this:

PRESENT IMPERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + IMPERFECT -er- --> -irv-
PRESENT PERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + PERFECT -ol- --> -ilv-
PAST SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + PAST PROXIMATE -ìm- or PAST GENERAL -am- --> -imv-

I think you can see what's happening here: the CONSONANT of the tense or aspect infix is shoved into the middle of the -iv- infix--an infix in an infix, if you will.

With the future subjunctive, there's a slight complication:

FUTURE SUBJUNCTIVE: -iv- + FUTURE PROXIMATE -ìy- or FUTURE GENERAL -ay- --> *-iyv-

The problem is that although a syllable can end with r, l, or m, it can't end with y (unless it's part of a diphthong, which iy is not). That would violate the phonotactic constraints of Na'vi. So an epenthetic vowel comes to the rescue: -iyev-

An alternate form of this fused infix has arisen: -ìyev-. As an instance of vowel harmony (rare in Na'vi), the high front tense vowel i has become lax (ì) under the influence of the lax vowel e in the following syllable. Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable.

So that's a very long-winded explanation of why Kìyevame means: "May (we) See (each other again) in the future."

Sìlpey oe, oeyä tì'eyng law livu ngar!

[TorukMakto!]

Irayo!
I guess this is the only way to get more info and insight of the language due to Fox limtations.
Dr. Fommer seems like a nice person, I'd say keep on sending those insightful emails with question and little by little get re knowledge of the language.

[Erimeyz]

Awesome, thanks for sharing!  Added to the Canon: http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Fused_-iv-_Infixes

  - Eri

[Skyinou]

That's great!
We just need to know about PAST/FUTUR + PERFECTIVE now
And triple infixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example?

Thanks for the mail!

[Mirri]

The problem is that although a syllable can end with r, l, or m, it can't end with y (unless it's part of a diphthong, which iy is not). That would violate the phonotactic constraints of Na'vi. So an epenthetic vowel comes to the rescue: -iyev-

An alternate form of this fused infix has arisen: -ìyev-. As an instance of vowel harmony (rare in Na'vi), the high front tense vowel i has become lax (ì) under the influence of the lax vowel e in the following syllable. Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable.

Ouch x.x
I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."

[wm.annis]

And triple inixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example?

Oh, good.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who went from "yay!  an Epistle from Frommer" immediately to "wait, what's a future perfective subjunctive going to be?"

[wm.annis]

I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."

Tsa'u nìlaw lam — that seems clear.

[DrBinder]

Well, I'm glad this got cleared up.

[suomichris]

I'm sure hoping he means "Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable."

Yup, he cleared that up in an email this morning.  Here's the text:

Ma oeyä eylan,

Tsap’alute, mì upxare a fpole’ oel ayngaru trram lu kxeyey:

KEYAWR:
Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable

EYAWR:
Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable

Irayo ’eylanur awngeyä Prrton a kxeyeyti rolun.

[suomichris]

That's great!
We just need to know about PAST/FUTUR + PERFECTIVE now
And triple infixes? PAST + SUBJONCTIVE + PERFECTIVE for example?

Thanks for the mail!

He does say that there are a "small number" of fused ones, so I wonder if most of the others won't just be one infix after another?

[Lance R. Casey]

Ma oeyä eylan,

Tsap'alute, mì upxare a fpole' oel ayngaru trram lu kxeyey:

KEYAWR:
Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable

EYAWR:
Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable

Irayo 'eylanur awngeyä Prrton a kxeyeyti rolun.

Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?

[suomichris]

Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?

Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p

[TorukMakto!]

Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?

Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p

What is your guess about the translation of those new words?

[suomichris]

Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?

Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p

What is your guess about the translation of those new words?

Well, eyawr certainly looks like correct.  run, though, could be any number of things, I think: "find, notice, point out, correct, etc."  Hard to say without a translation/context.  I am kind of hoping it's "find," since that would be a great word to have!

[Keylstxatsmen]

Hey, new words?

? *eyawr correct
? *run point out, identify

Or something like that?

Looks like.  Frommer didn't provide an English translation, though, so it's hard to say example what the words mean :p

What is your guess about the translation of those new words?

Well, eyawr certainly looks like correct.  run, though, could be any number of things, I think: "find, notice, point out, correct, etc."  Hard to say without a translation/context.  I am kind of hoping it's "find," since that would be a great word to have!

Finally we can stop misusing muiä!

-Keyl

[suomichris]

Just heard back from Frommer.  run means "find, discover."

Yay a verb for "find"!!

[Mirri]

I didn't think it was worth bothering Frommer over something that was clearly a typo, but we got two new words out of it, so YAY! 

[Ftiafpi]

wow, this fills a big gap, awesome.

[Prrton]

Just heard back from Frommer.  run means "find, discover."

Yay a verb for "find"!!

I was just about to double-check with him on run. I took it to mean "find" when I first saw it, but all of the other "options" were certainly valid ideas earlier in the thread today too. It makes sense to me as something as basic as "find" because it's so short and such a critical concept in any human language.

  Trr aylrrtokä!

           

__________________

[Mirri]

Just heard back from Frommer.  run means "find, discover."

Yay a verb for "find"!!

I was just about to double-check with him on run. I took it to mean "find" when I first saw it, but all of the other "options" were certainly valid ideas earlier in the thread today too. It makes sense to me as something as basic as "find" because it's so short and such a critical concept in any human language.

  Trr aylrrtokä!

           

__________________

Evidently a passionate conversation is not a very basic concept then, ftxavanga pängkxo.