Art related Vocab

Started by Skxawng, February 01, 2010, 10:03:00 AM

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Erimeyz

Quote from: Eight on February 04, 2010, 01:35:17 PM
I don't have any problem with it at all - in fact I like it this way - but I'd prefer to see something official about -tu refering to the affected person if used with a verb.

Well, that's kinda what he said:

Quote
About -tu vs. -yu: You're right--"yu" is an ending for a verb, converting it into the doer or agent, similar to English -er. "Tu," on the other hand, is short for "tute," person (as in Tawtute), and is generally used with parts of speech other than verbs.

"generally" used with non-verbs means "sometimes" used with verbs.  And I don't think you can get much clearer than "Tu is short for tute, person".  So a compound formed with X-tu means X-person... and X-person means whatever it means.  Maybe agent, maybe subject, maybe interested person... probably no way to know except on a case-by-case basis.

  - Eri

Eight

#41
Quote from: Erimeyz on February 04, 2010, 02:49:34 PM
Well, that's kinda what he said:
If you mean "kinda" in the sense of not addressing the key bit, then yes. :)

Quite clearly -tu could be used with verbs but that's all I've seen so far. I'm only saying that I'd prefer another example or two (or confirmation) of what the effect is.

Especially since that, only in my own opinion, if verb+tu meant (or could mean) the affected/interested party then I don't think "generally used with parts of speech other than verbs" would be right. Because surely this would be quite a common thing to use?

Erimeyz

Quote from: Eight on February 04, 2010, 03:23:39 PM
Especially since that, only in my own opinion, if verb+tu meant (or could mean) the affected/interested party then I don't think "generally used with parts of speech other than verbs" would be right. Because surely this would be quite a common thing to use?

You know, that's a great point.  Why wouldn't it be common with verbs?  Maybe there's not that many verbs where "associated person" means anything other than "doer"?  So most verbs just take -yu, with -tu being "technically" correct but actually wrong, like "law-ist" or "piano-er"?

  - Eri

Eight

Quote from: Erimeyz on February 04, 2010, 04:35:59 PM
Maybe there's not that many verbs where "associated person" means anything other than "doer"? 
In English I could think of a lot of verbs where you'd have a literal verb+er and verb+ee (eg. employer, employee) and you could in theory have less literal pairs like hunter/huntee (prey)... but something like this might not be so acceptable in Na'vi (and it might not be very common in other languages, I'll be the first admit my studies of languages beyond Europe is patchy at best).

But it is a good question - is there something about spe'e that I'm missing which might explain why spe'eyu is probably a captor and spe'etu a captive, but that the application of this combination might not be appropriate for other transitive verbs taking people as objects.

Aaaarrrggghhh. Oeyä eltu hurts. :D

Skyinou

From what we know about the Na'vi people, I would say "yu" is simply honorific and "tu" is a fact.

Taronyu: That'is not exactly "one who hunt", but more a grown person who finished his initiation.
And "spe'etu and tseotu are "people who do these things", being captive or art.

Of course it make being an artist somewhat lower than a hunter, which sounds really bad. But I see that more like you can be both. Depending of if you can live within the clan being only an artist, without becoming "Taronyu" or equivalent.
Let's rock with The Tanners!

wm.annis

Quote from: Skyinou on February 06, 2010, 10:26:32 AMFrom what we know about the Na'vi people, I would say "yu" is simply honorific and "tu" is a fact.

Frommer has explicitly stated that he didn't try to work a world-view into the grammar of the language.  From the UGO interview

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Jordan Hoffman: Well, this leads to an actual question – the Na'vi philosophy is a very natural, holistic way of life. Those blue suckers are very green. Did this in any way inform the construction of the language?

Paul Frommer: No. Only with certain concepts that I knew needed to be in there like "Tree of Souls" or "Hometree" and some of the religious concepts of Eowah. Otherwise, no, I just wanted exotic sounds to the Western ear – the ejectives the [proceeds clicking and making beat box sounds] and something fun for the audience. There is really no connection between the grammatical structure or aural quality of a language with the culture of a people.

Skyinou

I don't think this goes against what I suggested. Since there are words like "uniltaron" which refers directly to something special needed for becoming "taronyu".
Dr. Frommer did said there is no connection with grammar and culture, but there is no way to create a full language without thinking of the people who use it.
There we are more on the "vocabulary" part, which is more connected to the people, than the grammar. In my opinion, he said that to mention Na'vi is a full grown language, not a kind of "love-tree simple-minded way of speaking".
I may be wrong, of course. :P
Let's rock with The Tanners!

Erimeyz

The reason there's so much tree-hugger hippie crap in the current vocabulary is because Frommer only created words as needed to translate the script.  So Frommer developed the language, but the selection of words making up the lexicon is entirely due to Cameron.

  - Eri

kewnya txamew'itan

I've just been thinking about pamtseo and reltseo and thought, given that specific artforms seem to be made by compounding the word for the medium with tseo, mightn't poetry be lì'utseo or word-art?
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Erimeyz

Quote from: tìkawngä mungeyu on February 06, 2010, 03:25:46 PM
I've just been thinking about pamtseo and reltseo and thought, given that specific artforms seem to be made by compounding the word for the medium with tseo, mightn't poetry be lì'utseo or word-art?

It certainly might be.  But lì'utseo could mean storytelling instead, or perhaps the Na'vi don't see a distinction between the two forms of art, or perhaps they only have one or the other.  We know they have songs, and they have a separate word for them.  What we consider poetry they may just think of as a song without music.

I would use lì'utseo for anything that I considered "word-art", until we get more words or more specific definitions.

  - Eri

Prrton

Quote from: Erimeyz on February 06, 2010, 03:37:51 PM
Quote from: tìkawngä mungeyu on February 06, 2010, 03:25:46 PM
I've just been thinking about pamtseo and reltseo and thought, given that specific artforms seem to be made by compounding the word for the medium with tseo, mightn't poetry be lì'utseo or word-art?

It certainly might be.  But lì'utseo could mean storytelling instead, or perhaps the Na'vi don't see a distinction between the two forms of art, or perhaps they only have one or the other.  We know they have songs, and they have a separate word for them.  What we consider poetry they may just think of as a song without music.

I would use lì'utseo for anything that I considered "word-art", until we get more words or more specific definitions.

  - Eri


Merllte