Author Topic: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on  (Read 4070 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« on: December 01, 2010, 07:37:02 am »
After two discussions recently on the forums ([1], [2]), I decided to tack on two questions to some email to Frommer about the Vocabulary Committee.  After a few days of meditation and discussion...

As ADJ/ADV as N/PRN
For this he decided to create a modification of fìtxannìftxan, which works with na:

Quote from: Frommer
Oe lu nìftxan sìltsan na nga.

I’d also like to allow an optional –ri form in place of na:

Ngari lu oe nìftxan sìltsan.

That wouldn’t work all the time. For example:

?Utralìri lu fìpo nìftxan tsawl.

That places too much emphasis on utral, which is only the standard of comparison and presumably hasn’t yet figured into the conversation. In this case na utral would be preferable.

I asked for clarification about the use of the topical, "So, nìftxan...na... always possible, with a topical point of comparison for old information (pronouns, discourse topics we've already seen that for some reason we want to use as a point of comparison)?"  His answer, "Correct."

We can also use this construction with adverbs.


The Continuative: Keep on Keepin' on
After discussion involving both Tirea Aean's suggestion of salew, and Frommer's own preference for 'ì'awn, a follow-up question from me about states (grammatically speaking) led him to create a new verb, var:

Quote from: Frommer
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I've decided to go with a new verb, var. As a main verb it means 'to persist in a state, to continue to perform an action.' As such, it can take the place of mi with a repeated verb. For example, instead of this:

-Pol trram yerikit tarmaron. 'He was hunting hexapede yesterday.'
-Fìtrr mi teraron. 'He's still hunting (hexapede) today.'

you could simply say:

-Pol trram yerikit tarmaron. 'He was hunting hexapede yesterday.'
-Fìtrr var. 'He still is today.'

As a helping verb, it functions in place of salew/'ì'awn that we discussed earlier:

Var nivume ko! 'Let's keep learning!'

Na'vi has interesting kinds of anaphora.  In any case, var nivume ko!
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2010, 07:45:05 am »
You sir are amazing.

Thank you for posting this. To the wiki canon!

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2010, 08:04:25 am »
Irayo nìtxan :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Taronyu

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2010, 08:19:52 am »
Sweet man!

Added var. Glad to get new stuff!

Offline Skxawng

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2010, 08:29:04 am »
Been wanting this verb for a while now, and I like how simple and easily remembered it is :)


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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2010, 08:50:00 am »
Sweet man!

Added var. Glad to get new stuff!

what about nìftxan?

Missed nìftxan when I uploaded var. Cheers annis!

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Offline Plumps

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2010, 09:14:43 am »
YES! :D
Been looking forward to this construction for so long :)
Thanks for sharing, ma William

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2010, 10:51:34 am »
Cool!  So, would you also use var for something that conveys, "I have been doing X since yesterday"?  How would you do that?

(P.S., i'm guessing "since" ultimately will come from a word that functions as the opposite of vay(krr?), but i dunno).
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2010, 11:29:27 am »
Cool!  So, would you also use var for something that conveys, "I have been doing X since yesterday"?  How would you do that?

(P.S., i'm guessing "since" ultimately will come from a word that functions as the opposite of vay(krr?), but i dunno).

hmmm a good follow up question i didnt think of, but HAVE thought about before: "I have been a member since____" or he has been ___ing since ____...

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Offline Ataeghane

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2010, 01:14:55 pm »
That's one problem. And what about 'for'? (I've been learning for 2 hours.) Is it the same construction?

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2010, 01:17:18 pm »
That's one problem. And what about 'for'? (I've been learning for 2 hours.) Is it the same construction?

for, I believe is covered by either

the adp -fpi+

or

the topic noun case -ri

totally depending on what the sentence is

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Offline Ataeghane

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2010, 01:33:45 pm »
Well, I think I don't get it. Can you gimme some examples? For example, how would you say: 'I've been learning for 2 hours'?

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2010, 01:35:38 pm »
for, I believe is covered by either

the adp -fpi+

or

the topic noun case -ri

Neither of those is going to work for the sense of "for (some period of time)," I'm pretty sure.

If we trust Norm's dialog, it looks like we just use the correct time expression in the subjective.  Plenty of time words seem to be happy to act as either nouns or as adverbs.

 Zìsìt amrr ftolia ohe, slä zene fko nivume nìtxan.
 I studied for five years but there is much to learn.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Ataeghane

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2010, 01:41:04 pm »
Well, Norm is not native, so I don't know if we can totally trust him, but still, it may be correct. And what about "since"? We don't really know?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 01:48:49 pm by Ataeghane »

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2010, 01:46:38 pm »
Neither of those is going to work for the sense of "for (some period of time)," I'm pretty sure.

If we trust Norm's dialog, it looks like we just use the correct time expression in the subjective.  Plenty of time words seem to be happy to act as either nouns or as adverbs.

 Zìsìt amrr ftolia ohe, slä zene fko nivume nìtxan.
 I studied for five years but there is much to learn.

I can answer that later ... but am not at my home PC right now to varify that with a quote from him.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2010, 01:48:48 pm »
for, I believe is covered by either

the adp -fpi+

or

the topic noun case -ri

Neither of those is going to work for the sense of "for (some period of time)," I'm pretty sure.

If we trust Norm's dialog, it looks like we just use the correct time expression in the subjective.  Plenty of time words seem to be happy to act as either nouns or as adverbs.

 Zìsìt amrr ftolia ohe, slä zene fko nivume nìtxan.
 I studied for five years but there is much to learn.


I see i misinterpreted this. We do not have an equivalent phrase to "for [amount of time],..." or "since [amount of time], ..."

I'm with Annis. Norm's quote is the closest we have to a structure like this.

Neither of those is going to work for the sense of "for (some period of time)," I'm pretty sure.

If we trust Norm's dialog, it looks like we just use the correct time expression in the subjective.  Plenty of time words seem to be happy to act as either nouns or as adverbs.

 Zìsìt amrr ftolia ohe, slä zene fko nivume nìtxan.
 I studied for five years but there is much to learn.

I can answer that later ... but am not at my home PC right now to varify that with a quote from him.

how long will that be?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 01:50:21 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Prrton

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2010, 01:57:39 pm »

Ooooh. Lovely!! I especially like the pum/var mutual nod.

Cool!  So, would you also use var for something that conveys, "I have been doing X since yesterday"?  How would you do that?

(P.S., i'm guessing "since" ultimately will come from a word that functions as the opposite of vay(krr?), but i dunno).

hmmm a good follow up question i didnt think of, but HAVE thought about before: "I have been a member since____" or he has been ___ing since ____...

The since/for [time period]/ago complex is one of the outstanding topics from LEP A.

I think that we have ways to cover all of them if «TA» can be used for ‘since’.

The ‘for’ + [time period] problem can be handled by imperfective -er- plus the time period.

‘Ago’ can be expressed with TAM past-perfective -alm-/-ìlm- and «sreset».

It will be interesting to see if indeed TA can be SINCE and if there are other clarifying tweaks that come up when this LEP A ground eventually does get covered.

The real challenge in my opinon is ‘by’ in the since of ‘I will finish it by Thursday morning.’ Will sre- simply suffice? Or, is it vaysre- or srevay- or some such?

There is a bit of complexity with Na’vi time in that the Na’vi apparently travel forward in time (salew) in a temporal bubble (which is the present (sekrr)) while time is traveling TOWARDS them in the opposite direction at the same time. It's like cars passing on the highway. Both are moving. The underlying model for this is revealed in the grammar of zusawkrr and ftawnemkrr. Salew and ’ì’awn (and now var) work well within this underlying construct. All of this came up as a function of O.F., Judy and I going to that Long Now Seminar on how Language Shapes Thought. K. Pawl has never written about it on his blog, but we’ve discussed it. It will be nice to publish it some day as visual model. I have one done, but he’s not had time to examine it thoroughly yet.

The «sekrr» bubble for temporal experience also likely has a relationship to ‘existence’ and ‘reality’. K. Pawl has yet to rule on how these reveal themselves linguistically.

PS: The Vulcan word for story is VAR. That will help me remember via the "narrative continues".

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2010, 02:04:59 pm »

Ooooh. Lovely!! I especially like the pum/var mutual nod.

what?


[...]

The real challenge in my opinon is ‘by’ in the since of ‘I will finish it by Thursday morning.’ Will sre- simply suffice? Or, is it vaysre- or srevay- or some such?

I'm thinking sre+.

There is a bit of complexity with Na’vi time in that the Na’vi apparently travel forward in time (salew) in a temporal bubble (which is the present (sekrr)) while time is traveling TOWARDS them in the opposite direction at the same time. It's like cars passing on the highway. Both are moving. The underlying model for this is revealed in the grammar of zusawkrr and ftawnemkrr. Salew and ’ì’awn (and now var) work well within this underlying construct. All of this came up as a function of O.F., Judy and I going to that Long Now Seminar on how Language Shapes Thought. K. Pawl has never written about it on his blog, but we’ve discussed it. It will be nice to publish it some day as visual model. I have one done, but he’s not had time to examine it thoroughly yet.

The «sekrr» bubble for temporal experience also likely has a relationship to ‘existence’ and ‘reality’. K. Pawl has yet to rule on how these reveal themselves linguistically.

Fascinating!

PS: The Vulcan word for story is VAR. That will help me remember via the "narrative continues".

PS: the Na'vi word for story is VUR. HRH ::)

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Offline Kamean

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2010, 02:29:51 pm »
Irayo nìtxan! :D
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline wm.annis

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Re: As X as Y; Keep on keepin' on
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2010, 02:39:19 pm »

Ooooh. Lovely!! I especially like the pum/var mutual nod.

what?

Anaphora ("carrying up") is what pronouns do — they replace a noun with a placeholder so we don't have to keep naming the noun phrase.  Pum is a funky kind of anaphora, too, because Na'vi pronouns cannot be possessed or take adjective modifiers.  Var is an anaphoric verb, in its first listed use, at least.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 02:57:55 pm by wm.annis »
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

 

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