Author Topic: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)  (Read 3561 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« on: February 16, 2010, 07:26:10 am »
Here's the mail from Karyu Pawl.  Evidently, he's been having computer difficulties recently.  The underlining below is mine.

Quote from: Karyu Pawl
Thanks for combining your questions. Yes, that helps a lot. Excellent idea. The only downside is that if the questions below are typical, they're often hard and deep, and I may not the answers immediately. But questions on this level help immensely in getting me to see the places where the rules need further development or clarification, or where I left inadvertent gaps.

Anyway, let me answer a few of the questions now, and I'll do my best to get to the others without too much further delay. As always, thanks for your patience.

BTW, "Ma Karyu Pawl" is fine. :-)

BTW2, if I had the Na'vi word for 'elegant,' (it's on my list), I'd apply it to your sentence:

"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."

Aylì'u ngeyä lor lu nìngay.

P.


Quote
1. Is this correct: po kä a tseng(ne) ke tsìme'a oel I didn't see
where s/he was going.

No, it's not. But it raises in interesting question.

The error is in the case of "tseng(e)."  The structure has to be, "I didn't see the place that s/he was going (to)," so we're essentially dealing with a relative clause. "Place" is in the matrix sentence, so it should be marked as an object. Changing the word order for clarity (which doesn't really affect anything) . . .

Oel tsìme'a tsenget/tsengit [depending on whether you like tseng or tsenge for 'place'] a . . .

But what's the RC? The place THAT S/HE WAS GOING or the place THAT S/HE WAS GOING TO?

If it's the former, we simply have: a po karmä (I like indicating the tense and aspect here, although it's not obligatory.)

If it's the latter, then since we can't strand an adposition in Na'vi the way we can in English, the structure is similar to "the place that s/he was going to it."

For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.

So the two possible versions of the sentence you want are:

(1) Po karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel.

(2) Po tsane karmä a tsengit ke tsìme'a oel.

(2) is unimpeachable, I think. But I'd accept (1) as well. It's a bit loose but it seems like a natural development, and it has the virtue of brevity.



Quote
4. Are multiple vocatives clustered (ma smukan sì smuke) or not (ma smukan sì ma smuke)?

Clustered. "Ma smukan sì smuke."



Quote
5. Does the vocative always come before the noun and all modifiers
including adjectives and genitives, or is it just before the head
noun?  Is it always a particle or can it ever be used as a
suffix/enclitic?

It's before the noun and all modifiers, not necessarily immediately before the head:

ma oeyä eylan: 'O my friends'

It's always before the NP, never a suffix/enclitic.


Quote
7. In toruk makto it seems like it should be maktoyu.  Aside from
"James Cameron Said So" is there a reason it is not?

So you guys noticed that, huh? :-)

JC and I had a bit of a discussion about "Toruk makto." I pointed out that according to the grammar, it should be maktoyu. And I was told in no uncertain terms that it was going to be "toruk makto," and I should figure out a way to make it work. The man certainly has the right . . .

So it's an exception--one of the iconic phrases in the language that developed unusually, for whatever reasons, and don't follow the normal rules. If we looked hard enough we could probably find parallels in English and in all other languages.



Quote
1. Regarding adpositions.  When they follow, they are written attached
to the word.  Can we assume this means they are enclitic, and have no
stress accent of their own?  Is the accent obliterated in two syllable
adpostions, as in eyktanmungwrr?

Yes, they're enclitic, without their own stress. EYKtanmungwrr is stressed on the first syllable--a bit awkward, perhaps, but not too bad.


Quote
9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt
with when the attributive is used?  Do other vowels need any special
treatment with the attributive?

In such cases the attributive "a" is swallowed up and disappears:

skxawng apxa, apxa skxawng

I can't think of any other cases where this happens, although aä and äa seem like rather unstable sequences. Until further notice, though, I think we'll allow them.

============

That's it for now. More soon, I hope . . .
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Tengfya swizaw

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 07:48:30 am »
I love this guy. I really do. Though I'll probably never get to actually speak with/email him, he's great and it's awesome how interested he seems to be in helping us all.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 07:56:03 am by Tengfya swizaw »


Here's to not knowing exactly what you're saying and having fun with it.

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http://learnnavi.deviantart.com/

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 09:09:58 am »
Huzzah!  Those are some important questions answered.  I'm particularly happy to have an inanimate "it"--now i have translations to fix!

All hail Karyu Pawl =D
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2010, 09:22:27 am »
sìltsana fmawn  :D

'Ivong Na'vi

Offline Eight

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 09:23:49 am »
Yay, I got an answer to a question I think I asked...

Which means more work for me (modifying software) but hey... :)

Edit: Forgot to say "Love ya Paul". :D

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 10:17:01 am »
I heart K. Pawl!

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 10:39:44 am »
Huzzah, now I just need to wait for him to reply to my email.  :D
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
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The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 11:17:43 am »
Great! Thanks for letting us know.
Oel vìyirä lì'ut... ;)


Offline Nyx

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 12:04:14 pm »
Awesome ;D

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 12:07:23 pm »
Could a linguist perhaps explain the first answer he gives for us non-linguists?

Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?

Offline Nyx

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2010, 12:22:46 pm »
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?

Wait, are you saying you have an alternative mode of transport?  :o

But yeah, we could just see it as some kind of laziness or ancient form.. and all languages have some weird exceptions, so I guess it's ok :)

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 12:25:11 pm »
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?

Wait, are you saying you have an alternative mode of transport?  :o

But yeah, we could just see it as some kind of laziness or ancient form.. and all languages have some weird exceptions, so I guess it's ok :)

A little off topic but I am glad that Na'vi has a few, select, exceptions for things, it makes it seem "more real" if you know what I mean.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2010, 12:51:21 pm »
Quote from: Karyu Pawl
For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.

Txantsan! :)

So, how about some extrapolation:

tsa it
mesa those two
pxesa those three
(ay)sa they

tseyä its
meseyä of those two
pxeseyä of those three
(ay)seyä their

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2010, 12:55:58 pm »
Quote from: Karyu Pawl
For inanimate "it" you shouldn't use po but rather tsa: a tsane po karmä.

Txantsan! :)

So, how about some extrapolation:

tsa it
mesa those two
pxesa those three
(ay)sa they

tseyä its
meseyä of those two
pxeseyä of those three
(ay)seyä their

Seems prudent to assume that this would work in such a way.

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 01:31:59 pm »
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?

i think the difference is not That big anyway. i remember the "o" at the end being pronounced once a bit "ou" like in the movie. i personally could imagine that it envolved by being told in stories, maybe just because it sounds more distinctive and unique.

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 01:34:02 pm »
Also, I suppose it more or less makes sense that toruk makto would end up being an exception since it's such a profound icon I could see the -yu being dropped. It probably wouldn't conflict either that much since how often would you talk about someone riding toruk?

i think the difference is not That big anyway. i remember the "o" at the end being pronounced once a bit "ou" like in the movie. i personally could imagine that it envolved by being told in stories, maybe just because it sounds more distinctive and unique.

Yeah, Mo'at has a definite "ou" when she says it.

Anyway, back on topic.

Offline Sanmäkx

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2010, 03:24:43 pm »
A delicious update. I'm thrilled that we can enjoy this level of direct support from Pawl.

Offline Mirri

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2010, 04:31:44 pm »
Huzzah!  Those are some important questions answered.  I'm particularly happy to have an inanimate "it"--now i have translations to fix!

All hail Karyu Pawl =D

Damn, I've been using 'u for that everywhere. It seemed much more simple and obvious to me :P
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2010, 05:04:51 pm »
Mirri: consider tute person -> po he/she :: 'u thing -> tsa it.  Yes?  Of course, 'u thing is derived, not attested.  And tsa was attested as that but is now also attested as it.  It's interesting that the one word covers both concepts.

And, of course, we have fipo, lapo, frapo, etc making compounds with po he/she instead of tute person... but we have fi'u, fra'u, ke'u etc making compounds with 'u thing instead of tsa it.  Hm.

And we have tsa'u that thing.  But we don't yet have tsapo that person, and maybe because there's an animacy contrast between tsa / po we won't ever get it?

We also have fipo that one (person or thing), attested in the ASG.  So does K. Pawl's latest gift mean that fipo is really this one (person)?

Hm.

  - Eri
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 05:12:32 pm by Erimeyz »

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2010, 06:28:03 pm »
And tsa was attested as that but is now also attested as it.  It's interesting that the one word covers both concepts.

This is ubiquitous.  Our own "he" and "she" started off life as demonstratives.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

 

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