Author Topic: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)  (Read 3562 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2010, 06:42:32 pm »
Could a linguist perhaps explain the first answer he gives for us non-linguists?

That was my question, and I tried to pack too much into it.  First, the wh-words in English have three distinct functions —

  • direct question: "Where did my little dog go."
  • indirect question: "I wonder where my little dog went."
  • relative adverb "Don't step where my little dog went."

Because krr in the a krr relative construction is adverbial, I was wondering if tsenge is, too.  But, by picking my example sentence, I asked a question about indirect questions instead of the relative.  D'oh!

The other issue has to do with "-ere" adverbs: where, here, there.  The thing about location is that you can either be there already, be moving there or be moving away from there.  In old fashioned English, we have "here, there, where" (stationary), "hither, thither, whither" (movement to) and "hence, thence, whence" (movement from).  I was trying to figure out what the Na'vi for "whither" would be.  Turns out to involve the noun for place, with a place-holder pronoun to get the adposition indicating motion toward (ne).
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Kì'eyawn

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1779
  • Karma: 32
  • Oeru syaw "tigermind" kop.
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2010, 07:06:32 pm »
This is ubiquitous.  Our own "he" and "she" started off life as demonstratives.

What do you mean, ma 'eylan?
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2010, 07:21:19 pm »
What do you mean, ma 'eylan?

Just that Modern English "he" and "she" are descendants of words that in Old English and earlier were closer to "this, that."
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Kì'eyawn

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1779
  • Karma: 32
  • Oeru syaw "tigermind" kop.
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2010, 07:22:41 pm »
"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."

Aylì'u ngeyä lor lu nìngay.


Could somebody help translate this for me, rutxe?  I'm having trouble understanding.  Here's what i have:

Nga-eyä teri           fay+txele      a       ay-sänume-ri        nga-r(u) irayo s<ei>(y)i ay-oe             nìwotx
You-GEN concerning these+subject SBRD PL+teachings-TOP you-DAT thank<LAUD>   we(EXCL).NTR much
"We thank you very much for your teachings concerning these subjects"?

And then that second part, what is "lor"?  I understand the rest.

Irayo, ma smukan, ulte Eywa ayngahu.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline Kì'eyawn

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1779
  • Karma: 32
  • Oeru syaw "tigermind" kop.
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2010, 07:24:06 pm »
What do you mean, ma 'eylan?

Just that Modern English "he" and "she" are descendants of words that in Old English and earlier were closer to "this, that."

Huh, learn something new everyday.  Now, is that because English used to be a gendered language, like French and Italian (and numerous other languages, i'm sure), or is that unrelated?
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2010, 07:47:35 pm »
"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."

"We thank you very much for your teachings concerning these subjects"?

Almost.  The ayoe nìwotx means "all of us."

Quote
And then that second part, what is "lor"?

"Beautiful," used of things, not people.

Quote
Now, is that because English used to be a gendered language, like French and Italian (and numerous other languages, i'm sure), or is that unrelated?

More like German — three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter) — but basically yes.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Txaslan

  • Tawtute
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • Karma: 2
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2010, 08:13:46 am »
This is great!

Offline Kì'eyawn

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1779
  • Karma: 32
  • Oeru syaw "tigermind" kop.
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2010, 10:50:41 am »
"Ngeyä teri faytele a aysänumeri ngar irayo seiyi ayoe nìwotx."

"We thank you very much for your teachings concerning these subjects"?

Almost.  The ayoe nìwotx means "all of us."

Quote
And then that second part, what is "lor"?

"Beautiful," used of things, not people.

Quote
Now, is that because English used to be a gendered language, like French and Italian (and numerous other languages, i'm sure), or is that unrelated?

More like German — three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter) — but basically yes.

Ngar irayo seiyi oe, ma tsmukan.  I appreciate your help; and that tidbit about English's past is interesting.  Eywa ngahu.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline Java

  • Tawtute
  • *
  • Posts: 73
  • Karma: -1
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2010, 09:38:10 pm »
Quote
9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt
with when the attributive is used?  Do other vowels need any special
treatment with the attributive?

In such cases the attributive "a" is swallowed up and disappears:

skxawng apxa, apxa skxawng

I can't think of any other cases where this happens, although aä and äa seem like rather unstable sequences. Until further notice, though, I think we'll allow them.

I woke up this morning thinking about that exact question. Kinda strange but convenient at the same time  :)

Offline Meuia te Stxeli Tstew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1157
  • Karma: 38
  • No, it is NOT photoshoped!
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2010, 10:09:39 pm »
Quote
9. How are adjectives that begin or end with "a" such as apxa dealt
with when the attributive is used?  Do other vowels need any special
treatment with the attributive?

In such cases the attributive "a" is swallowed up and disappears:

skxawng apxa, apxa skxawng

I can't think of any other cases where this happens, although aä and äa seem like rather unstable sequences. Until further notice, though, I think we'll allow them.

I woke up this morning thinking about that exact question. Kinda strange but convenient at the same time  :)

I asked it in the TeamSpeak server yesterday o.O
Fìtsenge kifkey nìswey livu txo ayoe nìNa'vi perlltxeie. Ngal 'awstengyem olo'it fpi tskxekeng.

Offline Prrton

  • Eyktan
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2799
  • Karma: 105
  • Rutxe, fmivi. Ftxey fra'u eyawr fuke, ke tsranten.
    • Pìlok leNa'vi a ro MaSempul.org
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2010, 02:48:49 am »
Great! Thanks for letting us know.
Oel vìyirä lì'ut... ;)



I'm pretty sure that « virä » is intransitive, so I'd suggest we might consider saying this using our handy new "causitive infix", which is « -eyk- » (pre-first).

TAFRAL:

« Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » or maybe a bit less idiomatically (from an 'Ìnglìsì perspective) >>>

     « Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä fìfmawnit »

From many things I have heard/seen from K. Pawl lately, he wants everyone to try to avoid using *non-Na'vi* idiomatic expressions for things that are not directly relevant to our human world. There is nothing wrong with « Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » and there is a special kind of "direct translation" humor in it that « fkot h-eyk-angham », but whenever we're doing this, we should do it *intentionally* for humorous or ironic effect, and not just because that's the idiomatic pattern we use in our language or languages. I don't mean this in a lecturing or disrespectful way at all, I'd just like to explicitly point it out so that we'll ALL ALWAYS think about it.  ;) My comment here is addressed to "all of us" (myself included).

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2010, 03:10:48 am »
Ma prrton, z<iv>ene nga p<ilv>lltxe san oe-l v<eyk>irä fìfmawn-ur sìk srak? Oe fp<ìlm>ìl (that sounds funny) tsnì san <eyk> sìk fko-hu tìkangkem si a krr nga zene nì-tìng-tu tìkangkem s<eyk>i.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6127
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2010, 03:21:42 am »
Great! Thanks for letting us know.
Oel vìyirä lì'ut... ;)



I'm pretty sure that « virä » is intransitive, so I'd suggest we might consider saying this using our handy new "causitive infix", which is « -eyk- » (pre-first).

TAFRAL:

« Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » or maybe a bit less idiomatically (from an 'Ìnglìsì perspective) >>>

     « Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä fìfmawnit »

From many things I have heard/seen from K. Pawl lately, he wants everyone to try to avoid using *non-Na'vi* idiomatic expressions for things that are not directly relevant to our human world. There is nothing wrong with « Oel v-eyk-ìy-irä lì'ut » and there is a special kind of "direct translation" humor in it that « fkot h-eyk-angham », but whenever we're doing this, we should do it *intentionally* for humorous or ironic effect, and not just because that's the idiomatic pattern we use in our language or languages. I don't mean this in a lecturing or disrespectful way at all, I'd just like to explicitly point it out so that we'll ALL ALWAYS think about it.  ;) My comment here is addressed to "all of us" (myself included).

That's an instance where I just wrote before thinking about it ... now that you mention it: YES, it is very idiomatic and I shouldn't have used it. I totally agree about non-Na'vi idiomatics ... whatever that entails ... but that's something for another thread and another discussion, I presume ;)
Thanks for pointing that out!
No hard feelings from my side :)

Offline Erimeyz

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
  • Karma: 33
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2010, 06:18:32 am »
Prrton's point is well-spoken.  It's been made before, and no doubt will be made many times again.  Tìray lu fìfya.

It suggests a question for the "Combined Questions" thread, which I'll go post there now: What are some Na'vi idioms?  And I don't mean Na'vi translations of English idioms; those would be nice to have also but we can figure them out for ourselves.  I mean native idioms, and the more the merrier.  Why?  Because learning them can help us think in Na'vi.

  - Eri

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2010, 06:20:13 am »
I thought that when you used <eyk> you had to use the dative.

One uses the dative for the original subject of a transitive verb that has been made causative.  When an intransitive verb is promoted to transitive with ‹eyk› the object is in the accusative.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Erimeyz

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
  • Karma: 33
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2010, 06:56:04 am »
This last point is a bit confusing, and worth going through slowly (since it's covered in two different emails from Pawl):

Intransitive:
Po holahaw He slept
Oel heykolahaw poti I caused-to-sleep him

Transitive:
Pol tolaron ayfoti He hunted them
Oel teykolaron ayfoti poru I caused-to-hunt them him

It's a little weird to my way of thinking, honestly.  You'd think that using the causative infix would have the same effect on both the intransitive's subject and the transitive's agent, i.e. they would both become the patient of the causative and thus both take the accusative.  After all, they're the ones that the causative force is being applied to (they're the ones being caused to do something).  But NO!  That's not what happens!  The intransitive's subject becomes the causative's patient, but the transitive's agent becomes the causative's indirect object, and the transitive's patient remains the causative's patient.

Weird.  But totally in keeping with the idea of a tripartite system.  The intransitive's subject IS NOT LIKE the transitive's agent.  There's no reason for them to behave similarly when causativified.

  - Eri

Offline dylanbarash

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: 0
Re: Combined answers #1 (Feb 16)
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2010, 07:35:30 am »
Yay, I got an answer to a question I think I asked...

Which means more work for me (modifying software) but hey... :)

Edit: Forgot to say "Love ya Paul". :D
8)
Dbarash

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi