Combining our efforts

[Erimeyz]

Oh, okay.  I see your point, but we don't mark noun phrases or verb phrases that are in the place of objects, so I don't think there's any reason to mark a quotation with -it either.  And at any rate, I'm certain it would be wrong to add noun case markers to anything that's not a noun - we've never seen such a thing anywhere in the corpus.

But as far as Eytukan vs. Eytukanìl - that's an interesting observation; I don't think anyone's pointed that out before.  It appears that "X says quote Y unquote" is an intransitive construction, much like the modal verbs can/must/want.

  - Eri

[Alìm Tsamsiyu]

I'd really like an answer to my question noted here.

About oeyä, ngeyä, poanyä, etc. and how we say mine, his, hers, yours, etc. (Possessive Pronouns).

I have an email likely drowning in his mailbox with this very question in it (that I sent JUST before finding this thread quite a while back), but the question may be more likely to be answered in the bulk batch.

Anyway, I just want to know!

Also - a question that I haven't found the answer to, but I reckon someone else here will without having to ask Dr. Frommer (but if not, include it as one of my question contributions):

Do we use the attributive -a- with numbers when they describe a noun? For example: Four Thanators - Falulukan atsìng / Tsìnga falulukan?

['eylan na'viyä]

Updated my list on page 2 to mark questions that have been answered.  Now I jsut need to update it to include all the questions I haven't gotten around to adding yet.

maybe you should also indicate if there is allready a mail sent out cencerning that for each question

[Erimeyz]

Do we use the attributive -a- with numbers when they describe a noun? For example: Four Thanators - Falulukan atsìng / Tsìnga falulukan?

From Frommer's email about numbers we have 'Awa tìpawmìri one question, so the answer would seem to be "yes".

  - Eri

[wm.annis]

Another question: do adpositions ever go with nouns that have a case marker, or will the nouns always be uninflected for case?

(I assume adpositions evict any case markers based on what we've seen so far, but Word from On High would be useful.)

[kewnya txamew'itan]

I'm not sure if it was from Frommer or Karyu Amawey but someone said that adpositions behave like case markers when used post-positionally in which case it would be impossible.

Of course, word from on high would be great.





Ok, it's now been 17 days from when I sent my email and wm.annis got a reply so I think my email probably got lost in a spam folder or something.

Because of that I've decided to post my questions here:


The number system you have kindly given us implies that the Na'vi have some concept of multiplication and addition (they call 17 two eights and one), so what would they call these operations?

Following on from my previous question, do the Na'vi have any words for subtraction and division?

As the Na'vi do not seem to have any sort of currency there is unlikely to be any incentive for them to develop a theory of negative numbers to handle debts but they may have developed a concept of fractions, if so, what would they call these?

With infixes, in the language log article you described there as being two infix positions and a pre-first position. Is this pre-first position taken by the participial infix <us> as well as the reflexive? Also, might there be more infixes that also take this position and if so (or not), might it be helpful for us to think about it as three infix positions the first of which is rarely used rather than a pre-first position?

How does <ol> meld with tense infixes? Is it the same as <er> does for <a<r>m> and <ì<r>m>, also, does <er> continue this pattern for melding with <ìy> and <ay>?

If si can only be used as an auxiliary verb, what would be used for any other uses of the verb to do/make (although I can't think of any right now, I'm sure some have come up on the forum).

How do you form passive participles (if you do at all).

Can fnu be used as an adjective for quiet?

The Na'vi don't seem to have any form of currency or economy so money would be meaningless to them but do they have any vaguely equivalent term/practice similar to bartering (for the practice) or some form of expense or effort for the noun.

Does Na'vi have any words for the following yet: skull, tongue, burial, grave, the frame that Jake and Grace are tied to, the verbs to drown, to talk and to say (or the last two just plltxe?); name, old, footstep, it, foot and Polyphemus.

What does the <eng> in oe tsap'alute sengi mean?





There were a few other questions that have subsequently been sorted though.

['eylan na'viyä]

there are also some words that i thought would be nice to know
left, right
next, last
before, after
without
knife
jump(i could imagine that there might be more than 1 word for it)

i also wondered if the na'vi have a word for luck/badluck or if they express this in another way

another unclear thing are the prepositions
e.g. mì: has it only a local meaning? does it cover all local situations e.g. at home, on land(if atxke is understood 3dimenional wich might be likely since they move in 3 dimensions)?

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Apparently directions are coming soon.

[Erimeyz]

What makes you say that?

[Ftiafpi]

Yeah, I should have posted that here. Frommer has told prrton (and us in general) that he's going to get us colors and directions soon among other things.

[wm.annis]

na vs. pxel

[Erimeyz]

Frommer has told prrton (and us in general) that he's going to get us colors and directions soon among other things.

Cool!

That's very exciting.  Both directions and colors offer a plethora of possibilities for further demonstration that the Na'vi way of thinking is exotic, interesting, and beautiful (which to my mind are the defining characteristics of the language).

Directions:

I like 'eylan na'viyä's observation about three dimensions: not only do the Na'vi commonly ride flying creatures, but they habitually move through through dense elevated foliage - climbing, jumping, dropping, and keeping a lookout both above and below.  K. Pawl has said he hasn't considered the Na'vi culture in creating the language, but perhaps now is a good time for him to start.  Could the Na'vi have no words for left and right?  Might they make a distinction between directions on the ground, directions in the trees, and directions in the air?  If they have cardinal directions, are they tied to Pandora's motion relative to Polyphemus, Alpha Centauri, or the celestial background?  Or are they relative to landmarks instead?  Could the words for direction also incorporate a concept of distance, similar to the way the five verbal tenses incorporate both direction (past/future) and distance (near/far)?

Colors:

When it comes to colors, Pawl could transcend not just human language, but human biology.  The variety of color terms in human languages is simultaneously very diverse (ranging from two to twelve "basic colors") and very predictable (the sequence of which colors are added when as a language evolves is nearly the same all over).  This is probably because of the way the human eye works.

Now, based on the evidence of the film, Na'vi color vision is not particularly different from humans', because 1) we see things from Jake's avatar's perspective and things look pretty much the same, and 2) if Jake's avatar-vision were that different from his own, surely he would have mentioned it while on-camera; Cameron would have been sure to point it out to the audience if it were so.  But even with that as a constraint: at the very least, the Na'vi (and avatars) are better able to see at night, and to notice the omnipresent bioillumination that makes up their night-time world.  Instead of the basic color terms being variations of white/black/red/yellow/green/blue, maybe they see the world as "sunlight/shadow/living-light/darkness/blue-green/red-yellow/brown".  Maybe the Na'vi have a biological capability to see a color distinction between things that are alive (plants and animals) and inanimate (stone, earth, metal), so that a brown rock and a brown tree trunk have different color words because they actually register as different colors to Na'vi eyes.  Maybe there are colors (and color names) that can only be seen through tsaheylu.



Pawl has said Na'vi is made up of things already found in human languages, even though the combination is unique.  Well, that was two months ago... he's since gone beyond that with the number system!  Now, that may have been a natural, perhaps even obvious, thing to do, but I for one encourage him to keep it up and keep going even further!  I don't know how much of this kind of stuff Pawl can do on his own versus needing Jim Cameron's input.  I don't even know how interested he is in pushing things that far.  But I can hope.  And wait.  And see.

  - Eri

[Kì'eyawn]

Ma Eri, i hope your prediction about Na'vi perception of color proves to be correct; it would add some wonderful depth to the language.

Eywa ngahu

[Erimeyz]

Okay, I now have a public answer to my trial forms question, so here's my next contribution to the collective missive:

More native idioms, please?

... And yes, I see that we just got one ("oeru teya si").  Moar Plz?!?

  - Eri

[Keylstxatsmen]

there are also some words that i thought would be nice to know
...
before, after
...

I second this.  I think there needs to be a little more temporal words.  I think we have yesterday trram, but what about tomorrow?  Also before, after, near, far in a temporal context is much needed to be able to talk about anything. 

Larger issues of time are how do the Na'vi count time, in days? moon cycles? seasons? Can trram be anytime in the near past, or is it only specifically yesterday? 

Also, in a slightly related query, it would be nice to have the word for "Birthday".

If someone else has mentioned any of this, just add my name to the list.  Also, if we know any of these already, I'd love to know as well.

-Keyl 

[Erimeyz]

Has anyone else noticed that the more we know, the more we want to know?

Two months ago we were excited about deriving *fì to mean "this".  Now we want to know about timekeeping (on two planets!), questions, directions, colors, idioms, abstract concepts, and Shakespeare.

We're hungry little falulukan, aren't we?

  - Eri

[Ftiafpi]

Has anyone else noticed that the more we know, the more we want to know?

Two months ago we were excited about deriving *fì to mean "this".  Now we want to know about timekeeping (on two planets!), questions, directions, colors, idioms, abstract concepts, and Shakespeare.

We're hungry little falulukan, aren't we?

  - Eri

YOM YOM YOM!

[wm.annis]

Warning: high density linguo-babble ahead.

Confirm: tsa inanimate "it"; tsa- "that," regardless of animacy; tsay- "these" (with tsa- and lenited first consonant also possible).  Genitive of tsa — tseyä?

What is the animacy hierarchy?  Na;vi, humans, motile animals: po.  What about plants?  What about a tree?  What about a Hometree?

Family words: is sa'nok sufficient to mean "my" mother most of the time, or must I use a possessive pronoun?  Any dovetailing with inalienable possession, extending this to body parts, etc.?

Can I elide a repeated verb and let the case disposition take care of the rest?  Ayvulit ngal tse'a, slä utralit oel, "you see the branches, but I (see) the tree."

It seems kelkune would work for "homeward."  What about "at home"?  Or "at" anywhere, actually.

Is -'u a productive affix for object nouns (yom'u for "food", say)?  Inspired by lì'u.

['eylan na'viyä]

Has anyone else noticed that the more we know, the more we want to know?

Two months ago we were excited about deriving *fì to mean "this".  Now we want to know about timekeeping (on two planets!), questions, directions, colors, idioms, abstract concepts, and Shakespeare.

We're hungry little falulukan, aren't we?

  - Eri

YOM YOM YOM!

maybe we shouldt send too big packages too often and sort out only the most important/interesting questions for now

[Swoka Swizaw]

Simple: the adposition for "on (top of)." For one of the Na'vi quotes in my sig, I was forced to use the word, mì. First, I used kip, but that didn't feel right, so I settled on mì. Fìlì'u ke 'efu oeru mi eyawr.

By the way, I know that Na'vi is still the property of Faux, but has anyone ever thought of asking Frommer how much he has made? Like, he doesn't have to give us the specifics, but perhaps he can tell us whether or not he's yet come up with words for a large range of...colors, let's say. At least, give us confidence that if and when the flood gates open, we could expect Noah's flood behind it.