Concerning time words and fìmeu

Started by Plumps, August 07, 2014, 05:19:32 PM

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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Horen 3.3.7 gives the order of prefixes on a noun, and fìmeu does not violate that. However, words like *ayfì'u. Do. Fìmeu has a useful meaning as Pawl points out. However fìayu does not, unless you rearrange the prefixes in your mind, such that fìayu means 'all these things'.

Unquestionably a question for Pawl, as I don't think this has been formally addressed anywhere.

Another thing. The reference in Horen 6.5.2.2, if I am interpreting it right, implies the short plural always means the singular. This makes more sense whatsoever, and maybe I am somehow misreading that. (BTW, the use of the long plural for clarity or emphasis was understood early on, and this is why I deliberately chose 'Eylan Ayfalulukanä over 'Eylan Falulukanä as my Na'vi name.)

Yawey ngahu!
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Mech

Concerning the long vs short plural, I don't know if it has been addressed before, but my hunch is that the long plural should ALWAYS be preferred in ceremonial situations eg. alongside ohe, ngenga etc.

Tirea Aean

#22
Quote from: Mech on August 02, 2017, 06:19:55 PM
Concerning the long vs short plural, I don't know if it has been addressed before, but my hunch is that the long plural should ALWAYS be preferred in ceremonial situations eg. alongside ohe, ngenga etc.
I would imagine so.

@`EA,
As for short plural, it is not singular. Short plural is a shortcut to express plural. All it was saying is if you encounter a noun that has changed due to a lenition-causing adposition like mì+, then the lenited noun is to be taken as lenited singular, not short plural. This was designed to break an ambiguity.

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Blue Elf

#23
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on August 02, 2017, 05:03:28 PM
Horen 3.3.7 gives the order of prefixes on a noun, and fìmeu does not violate that. However, words like *ayfì'u. Do. Fìmeu has a useful meaning as Pawl points out. However fìayu does not, unless you rearrange the prefixes in your mind, such that fìayu means 'all these things'.
According horen *fìayu should not exist. Fì- + ay+ results in fay+ prefix.

Quote3.3.1. Fì-. This prenoun is for proximal deixis, this. When it is followed by the plural prefix ay+ they contract into fay+, these.
But also it states:
QuoteBut we've seen fìay- from Frommer at least once, oel foru fìaylì'ut tolìng a krr, kxawm oe harmahängaw.
(source).
This requires answer, whether it is mistake / exception / what the hell. The whole sentence has not very clear meaning:
When I has given them these words, I was sleeping == when I told the these words, I was sleeping (??).

What is poet trying to say? Was I talking from sleep ? I was talking and they didn't hear me/ didn't want to hear me? Somehow strange...

Edit: added to grammar section of current submission.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tirea Aean

Quote from: Blue Elf on August 04, 2017, 03:49:39 PM
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on August 02, 2017, 05:03:28 PM
Horen 3.3.7 gives the order of prefixes on a noun, and fìmeu does not violate that. However, words like *ayfì'u. Do. Fìmeu has a useful meaning as Pawl points out. However fìayu does not, unless you rearrange the prefixes in your mind, such that fìayu means 'all these things'.
According horen *fìayu should not exist. Fì- + ay+ results in fay+ prefix.

Quote3.3.1. Fì-. This prenoun is for proximal deixis, this. When it is followed by the plural prefix ay+ they contract into fay+, these.
But also it states:
QuoteBut we've seen fìay- from Frommer at least once, oel foru fìaylì'ut tolìng a krr, kxawm oe harmahängaw.
(source).
This requires answer, whether it is mistake / exception / what the hell. The whole sentence has not very clear meaning:
When I has given them these words, I was sleeping == when I told the these words, I was sleeping (??).

What is poet trying to say? Was I talking from sleep ? I was talking and they didn't hear me/ didn't want to hear me? Somehow strange...

Edit: added to grammar section of current submission.

fay+ is just a contraction of fìay+

That expression looks like Pawl admitting he done goof'd. See the italic header there "on making a mistake:". It seems that "When I gave them these words, maybe I was sleeping D;" i.e., I must not have been even conscious and aware of what I was saying, the mistake was so bad.

EDIT EDIT: If both don't get to make it, I'd rather see the fìmeu prefix order of precedence question make it before does fìay exist uncontracted question. (If I understood correctly)

Plumps

Here's an update on the order of prefixes and the confusion hopefully clarified.

Quote from: K. Pawl, 16 Sept 2017As you know, the standard ordering of elements is: Demonstrative (fì-, tsa- ) + Number Marker (me-, pxe-, ay-) + Noun.

So, for example, from the film: "Fayvrrtep fìtsenge lu kxanì," where fì + ay --> fay.

That means the expected forms with 'u are, as you noted, fìmeu, fìpxeu and fayu for 'these 2/3 things' and

tsameu, tsapxeu and tsayu for 'those 2/3 things.' Those forms treat 'u as a NOUN meaning 'thing."


The unexpected order -- Number Marker + Demonstrative -- treats fì'u and tsa'u as bases themselves rather than as Dem + Noun. That is, they're considered, just as you said, bare pronouns that are "entities" themselves.

Vawmataw

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Blue Elf

all clear now, case closed. Thanks for info, Plumps!
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Wllìm

That is great to know, thanks for asking, ma Plumps! :D