Author Topic: Concerning time words and fìmeu  (Read 1387 times)

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2017, 05:03:28 pm »
Horen 3.3.7 gives the order of prefixes on a noun, and fìmeu does not violate that. However, words like *ayfì'u. Do. Fìmeu has a useful meaning as Pawl points out. However fìayu does not, unless you rearrange the prefixes in your mind, such that fìayu means 'all these things'.

Unquestionably a question for Pawl, as I don't think this has been formally addressed anywhere.

Another thing. The reference in Horen 6.5.2.2, if I am interpreting it right, implies the short plural always means the singular. This makes more sense whatsoever, and maybe I am somehow misreading that. (BTW, the use of the long plural for clarity or emphasis was understood early on, and this is why I deliberately chose 'Eylan Ayfalulukanä over 'Eylan Falulukanä as my Na'vi name.)

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Offline Mech

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Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2017, 06:19:55 pm »
Concerning the long vs short plural, I don't know if it has been addressed before, but my hunch is that the long plural should ALWAYS be preferred in ceremonial situations eg. alongside ohe, ngenga etc.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2017, 06:24:32 pm »
Concerning the long vs short plural, I don't know if it has been addressed before, but my hunch is that the long plural should ALWAYS be preferred in ceremonial situations eg. alongside ohe, ngenga etc.
I would imagine so.

@`EA,
As for short plural, it is not singular. Short plural is a shortcut to express plural. All it was saying is if you encounter a noun that has changed due to a lenition-causing adposition like mì+, then the lenited noun is to be taken as lenited singular, not short plural. This was designed to break an ambiguity.

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« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 06:30:03 pm by Tirea Aean »

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2017, 03:49:39 pm »
Horen 3.3.7 gives the order of prefixes on a noun, and fìmeu does not violate that. However, words like *ayfì'u. Do. Fìmeu has a useful meaning as Pawl points out. However fìayu does not, unless you rearrange the prefixes in your mind, such that fìayu means 'all these things'.
According horen *fìayu should not exist. Fì- + ay+ results in fay+ prefix.

Quote
3.3.1. Fì-. This prenoun is for proximal deixis, this. When it is followed by the plural prefix ay+ they contract into fay+, these.
But also it states:
Quote
But we’ve seen fìay- from Frommer at least once, oel foru fìaylì’ut tolìng a krr, kxawm oe harmahängaw.
(source).
This requires answer, whether it is mistake / exception / what the hell. The whole sentence has not very clear meaning:
When I has given them these words, I was sleeping == when I told the these words, I was sleeping (??).

What is poet trying to say? Was I talking from sleep ? I was talking and they didn't hear me/ didn't want to hear me? Somehow strange...

Edit: added to grammar section of current submission.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 03:59:12 pm by Blue Elf »
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2017, 07:53:02 pm »
Horen 3.3.7 gives the order of prefixes on a noun, and fìmeu does not violate that. However, words like *ayfì'u. Do. Fìmeu has a useful meaning as Pawl points out. However fìayu does not, unless you rearrange the prefixes in your mind, such that fìayu means 'all these things'.
According horen *fìayu should not exist. Fì- + ay+ results in fay+ prefix.

Quote
3.3.1. Fì-. This prenoun is for proximal deixis, this. When it is followed by the plural prefix ay+ they contract into fay+, these.
But also it states:
Quote
But we’ve seen fìay- from Frommer at least once, oel foru fìaylì’ut tolìng a krr, kxawm oe harmahängaw.
(source).
This requires answer, whether it is mistake / exception / what the hell. The whole sentence has not very clear meaning:
When I has given them these words, I was sleeping == when I told the these words, I was sleeping (??).

What is poet trying to say? Was I talking from sleep ? I was talking and they didn't hear me/ didn't want to hear me? Somehow strange...

Edit: added to grammar section of current submission.

fay+ is just a contraction of fìay+

That expression looks like Pawl admitting he done goof'd. See the italic header there "on making a mistake:". It seems that "When I gave them these words, maybe I was sleeping D;" i.e., I must not have been even conscious and aware of what I was saying, the mistake was so bad.

EDIT EDIT: If both don't get to make it, I'd rather see the fìmeu prefix order of precedence question make it before does fìay exist uncontracted question. (If I understood correctly)

Offline Plumps

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Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2017, 05:11:44 am »
Here’s an update on the order of prefixes and the confusion hopefully clarified.

Quote from: K. Pawl, 16 Sept 2017
As you know, the standard ordering of elements is: Demonstrative (fì-, tsa- ) + Number Marker (me-, pxe-, ay-) + Noun.

So, for example, from the film: "Fayvrrtep fìtsenge lu kxanì," where fì + ay --> fay.

That means the expected forms with 'u are, as you noted, fìmeu, fìpxeu and fayu for ‘these 2/3 things’ and

tsameu, tsapxeu and tsayu for ‘those 2/3 things.’ Those forms treat 'u as a NOUN meaning 'thing."


The unexpected order -- Number Marker + Demonstrative -- treats fì'u and tsa'u as bases themselves rather than as Dem + Noun. That is, they're considered, just as you said, bare pronouns that are "entities" themselves.

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2017, 01:36:51 pm »
Thanks!

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2017, 11:20:33 am »
all clear now, case closed. Thanks for info, Plumps!
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Wllìm

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Re: Concerning time words and fìmeu
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2017, 03:40:41 pm »
That is great to know, thanks for asking, ma Plumps! :D
Ke lu oeru kea 'rrkotswo :D
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