Concerning time words and fìmeu

Started by Plumps, August 07, 2014, 05:19:32 PM

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Plumps

I e-mailed K. Pawl a few days ago about a question I had for quite a while.

With time words I was always confused what adposition to use (if at all) because we have different examples where there is sometimes a , sometimes nothing at all. Also, different languages use different prepositions (or none at all?) to deal with talking about time.

It may not be that surprising but for those of you who are interested, here is his response:


Quote from: K. Pawl, Aug 6About your time-word question:

I've been loose about whether or not should, or needs, to be included with such words. The choice is usually optional, just as in English we can say "On Mondays I go swimming" or simply "Mondays I go swimming." (Is there anything comparable in German?) In this latter example, "Mondays" is acting as an adverbial. That's how i would analyze "rewon" and "kaym" in the corresponding Na'vi sentences. (Kaym oe slele nìtrrtrr.)

The one thing we CAN'T say is *mì kamtrr (or, of course, *kxamtrrmì). That's because "noon" is a point in time, not a range, and you can't be "in" a point. Words like rewon and kaym are obviously ranges, so you can indeed be "in" them.

For zusawkrr and ftawnemkrr, I would definitely include . I don't (yet?) have a good rule or guideline for that, but it feels right.

Another titbit... for those of you who wonder about the stacking of demonstrative/plural prefixes.
In another e-mail, he wrote:

Quote from: K.Pawl, Aug 6Ngaru fìmeu, ma tsmuk. :-)

[...]

P.S. This is the first time I've used fìmeu! I think it's appropriate here when there are only two things that I'm "handing" you. Stress on the u, of course: fì.me.U


Tìtstewan

Eltur tìtxen seiyi nìtxan ulte irayo!

Ngaru fìmeu
"here is the two tings" / "two things is yours" ???
So, fìpxeu and fayu possible too, kefyak?

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on August 08, 2014, 12:40:29 AM
Eltur tìtxen seiyi nìtxan ulte irayo!

Ngaru fìmeu
"here is the two tings" / "two things is yours" ???
So, fìpxeu and fayu possible too, kefyak?

Hmm... We have (ay)sa'u as plural of tsa'u. Also I remember that once Pawl said that plural of fì'u should be ayfì'u, not *fayu. I was surprised and remember it well, but now can't find that topic. But maybe that's only with ay+ (in words with 'u)? :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tanri

Yes, it is confusing a little.
As I know, pronoun this/that (fì'u/tsa'u) is looked at as a single noun without cutting it in a prefix and root. Therefore number mark comes in front of it (mefì'u).
However, a noun follows common pattern fì/tsa - number - noun.

What do you think about this example:
Fìmenikroi lu lor nìtxan, rutxe piveng oer teyngta mefì'u lu pesur?
These two hair ornaments are very beautiful, tell me please whose these are?
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tanri on August 08, 2014, 07:55:52 AM
What do you think about this example:
Fìmenikroi lu lor nìtxan, rutxe piveng oer teyngta mefì'u lu pesur?
These two hair ornaments are very beautiful, tell me please whose these are?

Where is this example from?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

Hmm.. there is not "two" versions of 'u, one as pronoun another one just as simple noun (as 'u means "thing") :-\

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on August 08, 2014, 10:11:16 AM
Hmm.. there is not "two" versions of 'u, one as pronoun another one just as simple noun (as 'u means "thing") :-\

'u is a noun, but fì'u and tsa'u are pronouns.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tanri

Quote from: Kemaweyan on August 08, 2014, 09:56:06 AM
Quote from: Tanri on August 08, 2014, 07:55:52 AM
What do you think about this example:
Fìmenikroi lu lor nìtxan, rutxe piveng oer teyngta mefì'u lu pesur?
These two hair ornaments are very beautiful, tell me please whose these are?
Where is this example from?
Just randomly created :)
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Eltur tìtxen si nìteng! I just looked up fì'u and tsa'u in the dictionary. Eì'u is listed as a pronoun, and tsa'u as a demonstrative. Perhaps we need to fix the part of speech on tsa'u to be consistent with what K. Pawl is telling us. I also wonder if a special note on plural usage is needed here, or if that just follows with usage on other pronouns?

I also wonder, if we have fìmeu, if fìpxeu is possible as well?

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tirea Aean

I think it really may be this:

Quote from: Tanri on August 08, 2014, 07:55:52 AM
Yes, it is confusing a little.
As I know, pronoun this/that (fì'u/tsa'u) is looked at as a single noun without cutting it in a prefix and root. Therefore number mark comes in front of it (mefì'u).
However, a noun follows common pattern fì/tsa - number - noun.

What do you think about this example:
Fìmenikroi lu lor nìtxan, rutxe piveng oer teyngta mefì'u lu pesur?
These two hair ornaments are very beautiful, tell me please whose these are?

noun 'u has form fì-me+u
pronoun fì'u has form ay+fì'u

This is all really strange. This also may be just because Pawl forgot about the single exception about 'u he made. And the exception made long ago kind of makes sense:

Plural of 'u = ayu
plural of fì'u = ayfì'u

Because fì'u is already some special pronoun.


??? :-\

Tìtstewan

Could it be not possible that if one use 'u as pronoun, it becomes dual/trial/plural - fì- 'u,
and in the meaning as noun fì- dual/trial/plural - 'u?
??? :-\

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Tirea Aean

kann man "Ding" benutzen, wie ein Pronomen?

normaleweise, man sagt z.B: er, sie, es, ihn, ihr, ihm.. aber nie Ding. Kefyak?

Tìtstewan

Ein Ding/Sache muss nicht immer ein Pronomen sein? Es kann auch etwas "unbekanntes Objekt" oder etwas "unspezifisches" meinen:
Dieses Ding kann fliegen. vs. Es kann fliegen.

"Ding" (fì'u / tsa'u) ist sehr ähnlich wie "man" (fko), nur, dass "man" für unbestimmte Personen/Lebewesen ist und "Ding" für unbelebte Objekte.


---
'u is definded as a noun, so if one add - or tsa- to that noun, it becomes suddenly (always) a pronoun? Weird.

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Blue Elf

Quote from: Tìtstewan on August 12, 2014, 04:03:26 PM
'u is defined as a noun, so if one add - or tsa- to that noun, it becomes suddenly (always) a pronoun? Weird.

One example where "logic" in language doesn't work.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tirea Aean

Quote from: Blue Elf on August 15, 2014, 01:54:22 PM
One example where "logic" in language doesn't work.

It's just like how if you put fi- onto tseng, you get an adverb. Or a noun. Sort of also unexpected by a certain point of view.

And how if you put a after fì'u, it suddenly turns into a subordinator thingy whatever-it-is-thingy thing.

'u is such a crazy word. ;D

EDIT: Ever notice that a is the ONLY single-letter word? It is actually an exception to word-building rule. No mono-syllabic may consist of simply a vowel or diphthong. (This is where ayu has no short form comes from, I believe)

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Tirea Aean on August 15, 2014, 03:15:34 PM
EDIT: Ever notice that a is the ONLY single-letter word? It is actually an exception to word-building rule. No mono-syllabic may consist of simply a vowel or diphthong. (This is where ayu has no short form comes from, I believe)

Single vowel words are allowed. See Horen 2.1.4.

I'll have to propose that o be the word to describe the patina that develops on the weathered faces of just a certain kind of green rock that is only found in the floating mountains ;)

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tirea Aean

#16
That just says what syllables are allowed to be made up of. You'd think that the rules of constructing a monosyllabic word would be exactly equal to the rules of constructing a syllable... but then why in the world can't u exist? it must always be 'u or ayu. And beyond that rule and the actual existence of a as a "word", we have (afaik) zero words ever consisting of only a vowel or only a diphthong.

Tirea Aean

Pardon the necro...

Has anyone actually followed up on fìmeu now apparently being canon?
What do we know about the existence of:

fìpxeu
fayu
tsameu
tsapxeu
tsayu

What does this say about the existing forms sa'u and seyä, which would have been expected to be tsayu and tsayuä?

It would be nice to have the plural rules be consistent for all nouns and pronouns.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

1I guess my comment was misunderstood.

By 'single vowel words', I meant words that consist of a vowel (or dipthong) and one other consonant. There are many examples of these words. 'u is such a word, and is unusual in that it can lose its consonant due to lenition. This may be why we have words like tsaw, which can be used in place of tsa'u. It may also be a pronunciation thing, and I know K. Pawl likes those little pronunciation things (most of which I can't remember.)

There is nothing in Horen that prevents a word that is just a single vowel. However, Horen may not be complete in this regard. We do have one single vowel (no consonant) word, and that is an important one, a. Something tells me there will not be other words like this.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tirea Aean

'u is the only single syllable word whose short plural form would yield only a single vowel remaining in the word. But there's this:

Quote from: Horen
3.1.3.1. The plural prefix only may be dropped if there is lenition. The plural of prrnen is either ayfrrnen or the short plural frrnen (but see §6.5.2.2).2

2 Exception: 'u thing does not take the short plural, always occuring as ayu.

6.5.2.2. Since lenition alone is also used as the short plural (§3.1.3.1), there is a chance for
number uncertainty depending on the conversational context. To be clear about number, use
the full plural prefix ay+; the lenited form without ay+ should be interpreted as singular. NT
(1/7/2010)

And so it stands that a is the only single letter word in the language, consisting of a lone vowel. I also do not see there being any other ones like this. Even the ayu having no short plural exception listed above appears to be a deliberate attempt to avoid single letter words made of one vowel. (For what It's worth, It's also clearly known that a single consinant could never be a syllable or word.)

But....

Still tho. What's up with fìmeu and what are the implications? We sparked discussion in thia thread about ayfì'u, aysa'u/sa'u but did we ever get answers on the order of presidence of the plural prefixes and fì-/tsa-? We know so far that the general rule has been fì-/tsa- first then me+/pxe+/ay+ but we were blown away by the actual existence of aysa'u and ayfì'u as exceptions to this rule. Is any theory in this thread on the mark about all this? Someone should send KP an email about this. I'm super curious :)

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