Author Topic: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)  (Read 2112 times)

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Offline Plumps

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Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« on: January 31, 2013, 04:31:32 am »
A few weeks back we had a discussion about comparisons. I was intrigued and asked K. Pawl about it. Here are his responses. Some of this we knew or guessed. But it’s always good to have confirmation.

Quote from: K. Pawl, 25 Jan
Quote from: me
We know that we can handle ‘I am as fast as you’ with the ‘A lu nìftxan ADJ na/pxel B’. Is this also possible with other verbs? E.g. Oe tul nìftxan nìwin na nga ‘I run as fast as you’?
Yes, that’s fine. Here, nìftxan is used before an ADV, not an ADJ, but that’s perfectly OK.

Quote from: me
Or with a transitive verb: Oel yerikit taron nìftxan nìltsan na nga ‘I hunt yerik as well as you’?
Fine.

Quote from: me
The same question with unequal comparisons: Our paradigm there is ‘A to B lu ADJ’. Is this also possible with other verbs? Like Oe to nga tul nìwin ‘I run faster than you’.
Fine.

Quote from: me
And if the particle to behaves like , it should theoretically be possible to use it with a case ending, right? Like Oel to ngal yerikit taron nìltsan ‘I hunt yerik better than you’ ?
That seems fine to me as well.

Quote from: me
With the superlative, we have examples of lu ADJ frato, N a-ADJ frato, V frato but not ADV frato. So these should be correct:
Po lu win frato. ‘S/He is the fastest.’ (faster than all)
Oel tsole’a fwampopit awin frato. ‘I saw the fastest Tapirus.’
Those are all OK.

Quote from: me
Nga oer tsranten frato. ‘You matter the most to me.’
Yes, that’s OK. But I’m wondering now about the “V frato” examples. Have you come across others in this category, besides tsranten? Whereas frato is freely used with all (scalable) adjectives and adverbs, I think its use with verbs should be quite restricted. For example, what would it mean to say, “Pol yerikit taron frato”? You need an adverb here, I think: “Pol yerikit taron nìltsan frato”—He hunts yerik better than anyone, or, the best of all.

Quote from: me
Is po tul nìwin frato ‘s/he runs the fastest’ also correct?
Sure, that’s fine.


And concerning gerund formation of compound verbs. Something, I think, William also wondered about in Horen Lì’fyayä.
Quote from: K. Pawl, 31 Jan
As to the gerund with compound verbs: good question! I hadn't given that consideration. But the answer is clear in my mind: it's tìyomtusìng, not *yomtìtusìng.
So, the tì- element always comes before the whole word, the ‹us› enters wherever the first position infix is in the verb… e.g. tìpänutusìng, tìnusewomum, tìzoslusu, tì’awstengyusem.


And lastly, I don’t know how I could have forgotten that but this is a confirmation of a word that’s almost a year old. Furia oel tsat tswolänga’ oeru txoa livu nìngay.

Quote from: K. Pawl
Quote from: me
I don’t know if you can provide me with a short answer whether we could use kelsar (kel.SAR, from ke+l(e)sar) to mean ‘useless, in vain’?
Tsalì'u alu kelsar kosman lu nì'aw!

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2013, 06:50:51 am »
Awesome stuff! Very useful confirmations!

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Offline Eltusiyu

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2013, 07:22:00 am »
Very interesting :) Really useful stuff!
Yeah.. Last time I've been here was.. year ago :(
Time to learn some Na'vi :D

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2013, 09:28:17 am »
Lu fmawn eltur tìtxen si nang! :)
Irayo nìtxan nang ma Plumps.

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2013, 12:21:11 pm »
Good to see answer from our biggest authority :) Thanks for asking, Plumps.
Now we must update our grammar documents...
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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2013, 05:34:31 pm »
Yay, clarity!
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Offline Toruk Makto

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2013, 08:11:26 am »
Good one!  Word kelsar added.  New dictionary version 12.881

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2013, 08:24:12 pm »
Faylì'u amip ke lu kelsar ki lesar! Oel fpìl futa frapol kamin faylì'ut.

Ngian, lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu ugly ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Pelun ke ngop lì'ut alu kelor?
:(
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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2013, 09:10:26 pm »

Faylì'u amip ke lu kelsar ki lesar! Oel fpìl futa frapol kamin faylì'ut.

Ngian, lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu ugly ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Pelun ke ngop lì'ut alu kelor?
:(

vä'. The opposite of lor is vä'.

tsatuteyä keyìri 'ur fkan lor - that person's face looks beautiful
tsatuteyä keyìri ri 'ur fkan vä' - that person's face looks ugly

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2013, 07:17:55 am »
Thanks!

Lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu nor mi ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Fìlì'u latsu lesar, kefyak?
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 07:25:30 am »
Thanks!

Lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu nor mi ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Fìlì'u latsu lesar, kefyak?

Fìralìri fko tsun sivar lì’ut fu lì’fyavit alu ftxey (… ftxey (fuke)) ;)

Natkenong:
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
Neither her brother nor her mother came to her test/exam.

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2013, 07:32:05 am »
Irayo, ma Plumps.

Oe lu skxawng nìNa'vi  :-[ , slä oe nerume.
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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2013, 09:04:42 am »
Thanks!

Lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu nor mi ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Fìlì'u latsu lesar, kefyak?

Fìralìri fko tsun sivar lì’ut fu lì’fyavit alu ftxey (… ftxey (fuke)) ;)

Natkenong:
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
Neither her brother nor her mother came to her test/exam.


:O REALLY? I did NOT know that. I thought that We had the word from pawl that it was "Neither do X nor Y" = "Not do Either X or Y" or something like that, rearranging word order such that you can use the words we have, either or.  Or say something that is logically equivalent.. ??? :-\ o.O

If it's true that we can use ftxey ftxey as "Neither / either" that's kinda news for me. I never thouht to translate it like that. I always thouht of it as "Whether X, whether Y, Z." "Whether it rains, whether it snows, the event will happen." sort of thing.

Coolness. :D

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2013, 11:50:37 am »
Thanks!

Lì'u le'ìnglìsì alu nor mi ke fkeytok nìNa'vi. Fìlì'u latsu lesar, kefyak?

Fìralìri fko tsun sivar lì’ut fu lì’fyavit alu ftxey (… ftxey (fuke)) ;)

Natkenong:
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
Neither her brother nor her mother came to her test/exam.


:O REALLY? I did NOT know that. I thought that We had the word from pawl that it was "Neither do X nor Y" = "Not do Either X or Y" or something like that, rearranging word order such that you can use the words we have, either or.  Or say something that is logically equivalent.. ??? :-\ o.O

If it's true that we can use ftxey ftxey as "Neither / either" that's kinda news for me. I never thouht to translate it like that. I always thouht of it as "Whether X, whether Y, Z." "Whether it rains, whether it snows, the event will happen." sort of thing.

Coolness. :D
Is it negation what causes this meaning? We were discussing it before in this thread, but I forgot it already...
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2013, 04:29:12 pm »
:O REALLY? I did NOT know that. I thought that We had the word from pawl that it was "Neither do X nor Y" = "Not do Either X or Y" or something like that, rearranging word order such that you can use the words we have, either or.  Or say something that is logically equivalent.. ??? :-\ o.O

If it's true that we can use ftxey ftxey as "Neither / either" that's kinda news for me. I never thouht to translate it like that. I always thouht of it as "Whether X, whether Y, Z." "Whether it rains, whether it snows, the event will happen." sort of thing.

Coolness. :D

Pure conjecture on my part, ma Tirea :P

Hm, otherwise I wouldn’t know how to translate the canon sentence sutekip nìwotx ftxey Na’vi ftxey Sawtute lu sìltsan lu kawng???  :-\ I always translated that as “among all people, neither Na’vi nor Skypeople are (truely) good or bad” … or something like that. :P Somehow I know what is meant in Na’vi but I can’t translate it into proper English … Native speakers to the rescue, rutxe ;)

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2013, 04:33:47 pm »
:O REALLY? I did NOT know that. I thought that We had the word from pawl that it was "Neither do X nor Y" = "Not do Either X or Y" or something like that, rearranging word order such that you can use the words we have, either or.  Or say something that is logically equivalent.. ??? :-\ o.O

If it's true that we can use ftxey ftxey as "Neither / either" that's kinda news for me. I never thouht to translate it like that. I always thouht of it as "Whether X, whether Y, Z." "Whether it rains, whether it snows, the event will happen." sort of thing.

Coolness. :D

Pure conjecture on my part, ma Tirea :P

Hm, otherwise I wouldn’t know how to translate the canon sentence sutekip nìwotx ftxey Na’vi ftxey Sawtute lu sìltsan lu kawng???  :-\ I always translated that as “among all people, neither Na’vi nor Skypeople are (truely) good or bad” … or something like that. :P Somehow I know what is meant in Na’vi but I can’t translate it into proper English … Native speakers to the rescue, rutxe ;)


That sentence I always thought of as "Among all people, whether Na'vi, whether Skyperson, there's good and there's bad." basically the idea of There is good and there is bad in all types of people, doesn't matter what race.

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Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2013, 09:47:35 pm »
Dunno whether this is a necropost, but
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
makes quite a lot of sense to me. I analyze it as

(Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok) ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.

or

Code: [Select]
for each word W in {tsmukan, sa'nok}
   W ke zola'u peyä tìfmetokne.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

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Re: Confirmations (comparisons & gerund)
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2013, 09:58:36 pm »
Dunno whether this is a necropost, but
Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.
makes quite a lot of sense to me. I analyze it as

(Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa’nok) ke zola’u peyä tìfmetokne.

or

Code: [Select]
for each word W in {tsmukan, sa'nok}
   W ke zola'u peyä tìfmetokne.

That code would imply, I think, that you could do this:

Code: [Select]
for each word W in {tsmukan, sa'nok, tsmuke, 'eylan, Txewì...}
        W ke zola'u [desc=some other person's]peyä[/desc] tìfmetokne

Ftxey tsmukan ftxey sa'nok ftxey tsmuke ftxey 'eylan ftxey Txewì [[ftxey ... ftxey ... ...]] ke zola'u peyä tìfmetokne

Can we do that? Not a necro, but I'm considering a split because this doesn't have to do with OP, I think.

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