Author Topic: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative  (Read 3108 times)

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Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 01:09:28 pm »
Except the vocative isn't required for addressing creatures so maweya tsmukan to a nantang makes perfect sense.

Oh, and where does that come from? (This brother vs brother discrimination sounds like Animal Farm to me... not Na’vi at all. :-\)
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2010, 01:18:40 pm »
Ta oengä karyu pawl. ;)

It was a modification to the rule after the film because Cameron insisted on a different version of the line.
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Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2010, 01:25:35 pm »
Ta oengä karyu pawl. ;)

It was a modification to the rule after the film because Cameron insisted on a different version of the line.

Irayo nìtxan, ma kemeoauniaea.

It could still be ma oeyä tsukan with the nantang then, couldn't it? Only I'm not sure anymore what she says after...
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2010, 01:32:05 pm »
I still favour the ma oeyä theory, as I have ever since we heard that inflected forms of oe could be pronounced we.

What Neytiri says is:

oel ngati kame maweya/ma oeyä tsmukan ulte oeru txoa livu, ngeyä tirea kivä Eywahu slä tokx 'ì'awn slivu na'viyä hapxì

TOON, it's been a while since I saw the film.

My name mìhìfkey is Tristan which has its etymological routes in the words tumult or outcry which is very close to dischord, the only reason I chose dischord with nature is because kemeoauniaea sounds a lot cooler than keme'em.
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2010, 02:12:18 pm »
No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".

Whoa! That's totally weird! Is this coming from an email or something? I'm asking because Ma oeyä Na’viya, [lu] mawey! seems to be double marked for vocative, and don't tell me it's not ma oeyä in the first part because then maweya smukan (in addressing the dieing nantang) makes no sense. Of course such double marking could be allowed no problem, just wondering...
If she was saying "Ma oeyä Na'viya, mawey" then why would it get subtitled as "Calm, people, calm"?  What makes you think that's what's being said?

And why can't it be "Mawey, Na'viya, mawey" and also be "Ma oeyä tsmukan"?  It sounds to me like you're applying rules in your mind, then confusing yourself by them.
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Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2010, 02:50:20 pm »
You're right. One could be this, and the other that. Now that I know the full story, I can see that too. (As for the sub, I didn't remember what it said anymore, nor was I aware that it was to be trusted. In Jake's speech, I remember, it wasn't precise.)
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Offline Prrton

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2010, 03:04:25 pm »
K. Pawl has said to me that the actors had more trouble with word final «-ä» than anything else in terms of pronunciation. (I also struggle with it quite a bit.) «Ma oeyä tsmukan» (from Neytiri's addressing the dying/dead nantang) had always sounded like «Maweya tsumkan» to me and I was assuming she was addressing him as "peaceful brother" with no vocative «ma».

This discussion is very enlightening for me.

Frapor irayo seiyi.

Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2010, 03:26:27 pm »
It's a damn shame really. I had such an awesome theory going on! :D
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2010, 04:44:22 pm »
No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".

Whoa! That's totally weird! Is this coming from an email or something? I'm asking because Ma oeyä Na’viya, [lu] mawey! seems to be double marked for vocative, and don't tell me it's not ma oeyä in the first part because then maweya smukan (in addressing the dieing nantang) makes no sense. Of course such double marking could be allowed no problem, just wondering...
If she was saying "Ma oeyä Na'viya, mawey" then why would it get subtitled as "Calm, people, calm"?  What makes you think that's what's being said?

And why can't it be "Mawey, Na'viya, mawey" and also be "Ma oeyä tsmukan"?  It sounds to me like you're applying rules in your mind, then confusing yourself by them.

I was agreeing with the mawey, na'viya, mawey and ma oeyä tsmukan. It seems I was wrong with the na'viya one completely, I'm pretty good at this being wrong thing, first transitivity, then inalienable si verbs and now mawey na'viya mawey, if ever there's a dispute about grammar, we ought to just look at the two main arguments, see which one I support and go for the other.  :P

K. Pawl has said to me that the actors had more trouble with word final «-ä» than anything else in terms of pronunciation. (I also struggle with it quite a bit.) «Ma oeyä tsmukan» (from Neytiri's addressing the dying/dead nantang) had always sounded like «Maweya tsumkan» to me and I was assuming she was addressing him as "peaceful brother" with no vocative «ma».

This discussion is very enlightening for me.

Frapor irayo seiyi.

Does that mean karyu Pawl has told us that the line was meant to be "ma oeyä tsmukan" or are we going on the subtitles for that?
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Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2010, 05:51:42 pm »
Does that mean karyu Pawl has told us that the line was meant to be "ma oeyä tsmukan" or are we going on the subtitles for that?

There were no subtitles for that line IIRC. I assume we're just going off of what makes more sense.

Offline Prrton

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2010, 01:46:36 am »
Does that mean karyu Pawl has told us that the line was meant to be "ma oeyä tsmukan" or are we going on the subtitles for that?

There were no subtitles for that line IIRC. I assume we're just going off of what makes more sense.

It COULD be either («maweya tsmukan» or «ma oeyä tsmukan»). I don't have any confirmation directly from K.P.. Both seem perfectly plausible to me considering the context, but... hmmm.... not sure. If the final ä is mispronounced, then there's no real way to figure it out from what Zoe says. I'd probably give it a 60/40 in favor of the "my brother" just based on my imagining of what Cameron would be more likely to WRITE for the dialog, now that I stop and think about it.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2010, 09:30:41 pm »
Just a couple minor clarifications in the first post for people wondering the correct way to use this.
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