Author Topic: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!  (Read 2751 times)

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Offline Prrton

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Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« on: October 04, 2010, 05:59:19 pm »
The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too. This new tidbit is something little but nice before I get very busy with a new work project tomorrow.

Tsmukan Hufwe ta’em was aware that I was planning to show his avatarization done by the very very talented Tsmuke Kxeyey to K. Pawl over the weekend. K. Pawl also saw others by the very very talented Tsmuke Tìngay Mungeyä. He liked them all very much. But, Tsmukan Hufwe ta’em sent me “more than one PM mail” over the course of the weekend asking about his photo. ;)



This morning I explicitly asked K. Pawl what brief message he wanted to say to Tsm. Hufwe ta’em about the pic (seeing them both side by side. His response was:

     Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!

There are two things that are particularly interesting about this (to me).

(1) It contains a new adjective «sayrìp» (“handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)), (2) It means roughly “It’s nice for me to see you look extremely handsome in your blue photo.” (He didn’t comment specifically on the non-blue version (“before”) photo, but I wouldn't take that personally.) ;)

The grammar uses the topical marker -ìri and that’s on the “photo”. The phrase «mì rel» (or «relmì», “in the photo/picture”) does not appear anywhere in what he said. This is a good reminder to us to not try to do “literal” translations directly from English all the time.

I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

     lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
     sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
     sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)

So, thank you ma Hufwe ta’em and ma Kxeyey (and, of course, ma K. Pawl), for the new word!

« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 07:41:07 pm by Prrton »

Offline Kayrìlien

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2010, 12:23:53 am »
Quote
The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too.

Awesome. You would not believe how eagerly I (and probably everyone else) am waiting to hear all the great new developments you guys have come up with!

Quote
I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

     lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
     sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
     sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)

That's cool to know, that Na'vi has that same sort of gender-defined split of words for attractiveness, sort of like gorgeous/handsome in English. Are we to assume, then, that mowan is gender-neutral? (I mean, if it can be used to describe tìtusaron, I'd say so.  ;))

Kayrìlien

Offline Prrton

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2010, 12:34:07 am »
Quote
The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too.

Awesome. You would not believe how eagerly I (and probably everyone else) am waiting to hear all the great new developments you guys have come up with!

Quote
I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

     lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
     sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
     sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)

That's cool to know, that Na'vi has that same sort of gender-defined split of words for attractiveness, sort of like gorgeous/handsome in English. Are we to assume, then, that mowan is gender-neutral? (I mean, if it can be used to describe tìtusaron, I'd say so.  ;))

Kayrìlien

In what sense would «mowan» not be gender neutral?

This intrigues me.


Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2010, 12:58:56 am »
I must admit in being a little disappointed that they would distinguish masculine beauty vs feminine beauty in the language, given how little gender seems to matter in many other aspects of the language. But I suppose not everything has to be different, and in fact making everything different would perhaps have made it feel less natural and more contrived.

Still, new stuff is always txantsan nìtxan nang.
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Offline Kayrìlien

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2010, 01:56:39 am »
Quote
The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too.

Awesome. You would not believe how eagerly I (and probably everyone else) am waiting to hear all the great new developments you guys have come up with!

Quote
I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

     lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
     sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
     sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)

That's cool to know, that Na'vi has that same sort of gender-defined split of words for attractiveness, sort of like gorgeous/handsome in English. Are we to assume, then, that mowan is gender-neutral? (I mean, if it can be used to describe tìtusaron, I'd say so.  ;))

Kayrìlien

In what sense would «mowan» not be gender neutral?

This intrigues me.


Well, see, that's what I mean...if there are gender-specific words for certain concepts but not others, it seems rather arbitrary to have any gender-specific words. Like, if you take the English equivalent of mowan to be "sexy", then yes, it's neutral, but there are examples of gendered pairs of words, especially unequal ones. (Guys and girls, anyone? Instead of guys and gals?)

I'm of the mind that a lot of the gender-specific words in English only persist that way because of social tradition; which can lead to any number of strange consequences, including, for example, the uneasiness that men have when attempting to complement each other's appearance. It seems to me that if we tried to reduce the number of gendered words in the language (remember we're talking about a language that doesn't have an equivalent word for Na'vi po), we might be able to eliminate some of the longstanding sexual prejudices still inherent in society.

But I digress. I agree with Omängum Fra'uti; it's moderately disappointing to see gendered words, from an altruistic perspective, but he's right; having one or two examples of gendered pairs does make the language seem more natural, almost as if there were once more examples of this phenomenon that have now faded into obscurity (sort of like how words like po only need the masculine/feminine suffixes once rather than every time)

I didn't really answer your question, ma Prrton. Hìtxoa; to be honest, I don't think I know of an example for that.  :-[

Kayrìlien

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2010, 01:58:48 am »
The Language Workshop is over and the fact that it’s over is kind of "very sad only" but everything that happened was well, WOU!

I personally did not take notes, but tons of others did and will also be posting photos in the next few days too. .

I can NOT wait to hear all about it and see some awesome pics! My curiosity of what has transpired from this workshop is burning with the flaming passion of a thousand white-hot sons!


(1) It contains a new adjective «sayrìp» (“handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)), (2) It means roughly “It’s nice for me to see you look extremely handsome in your blue photo.” (He didn’t comment specifically on the non-blue version (“before”) photo, but I wouldn't take that personally.) ;)

That would explain why I couldn't find a meaning of "sayrìp" anywhere hrh :D

The grammar uses the topical marker -ìri and that’s on the “photo”. The phrase «mì rel» (or «relmì», “in the photo/picture”) does not appear anywhere in what he said. This is a good reminder to us to not try to do “literal” translations directly from English all the time.

A good reminder for all of us!

I asked him about how «sayrìp» relates to «sevin» and «lor» (both of which we have had for a long time).

     lor, adj. generically “beautiful/pleasing to the senses” (of things or parts of peoples features as well)
     sevin, adj. “pretty” (primarily of females)
     sayrìp, adj. “handsome/good-looking” (primarily of males)

So, thank you ma Hufwe ta’em and ma Kxeyey (and, of course, ma K. Pawl), for the new word!

Personally I think it's cool that we now have ways to distinguish feminine beauty and masculine handsomeness. I think it would sound weird calling a man "beautiful" hrh. I always use handsome.

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2010, 02:12:04 am »
First of all, thanks for sharing this information, ma Prrton ;)

And adding to the discussion: it says »primarily« – in my book that means that it is very likely to mean either/or in a particular case but is not restricted to this specific meaning…
Maybe a grown Na’vi hunter would look strange at you if you refered to him as sevin, but then again, it could also mean that you just mean a specific feature of him; it could be used for caring/intimite use; for children (“pretty little boy”) etc.

Offline Amaya

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2010, 02:28:24 am »
Keep in mind also that in English (although much less in 20th century usage - I'm thinking more L.M. Montgomery's writing style here, or Arthur Conan Doyle, if you're more familiar with him) the word "handsome" can refer to women also, just as "beautiful" can refer to men, it's more that "handsome" has an implied connotation of strength as well as a well-made form, while "beautiful" has an implied connotation of softness or gentleness along with that same well-made form.

By which I mean that a "handsome woman" might be tall, with a powerful upright carriage and a face which is symmetrical but perhaps more stern or in possession of particularly strong features, whereas a "beautiful man" would likely be, by most standards, somewhat effeminate.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 04:45:21 am »
That's exactly my point... Calling one word beutiful for women and another handsome for masculine feels strongly like it is applying our cultural values. In our culture, it would indeed be strange for many men if they were called pretty, but the word is sevin, not pretty. Who says that it would be strange for a man to be called sevin?

What i am saying is that for there to be different words implies some different standard that they are to be held to, something i am not sure I see precedent for in the Na'vi. The only other word in Na'vi which is totally different based on gender is mother and father, but that is totally justifiable, as each IS held to a different role in the birth of a child by biology.

It still doesn't sit right with me having two words, but if it is to be, so be it.
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Offline Amaya

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 05:36:36 am »
Ah, but you see, the standards for attractiveness between males and females are different

And that's not cultural at all, that's biological.  So for me, having one word for "male-like attractiveness" and another word for "female-like attractiveness" makes perfect sense.  Just because the Na'vi have a more egalitarian society than our own, it doesn't mean they aren't aware of the differences between males and females, or that they aren't capable of expressing those differences with different words.

So I see where you're coming from, but I think your understanding of the implications of the words is a little...one-sided.

Sorry if that came out wrong. :-*  I'm a bit tired and having trouble mincing my words properly for an emphasis-poor forum such as the internet.




>.> and wow, apparently my level of formality rises in direct proportion to the state of exhaustion I'm functioning under.  Good to know, that. ::)

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2010, 12:19:33 pm »
OUR standards of attractiveness are different. Yes it is partly biological, but it is also evolutionary as to why they are the way they are. But our biology is different than theirs, as is our evolutionary path. So who is to say that their standards of attractiveness are equally different?

It would be interesting to look at how different languages and cultures on earth deal with this.
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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2010, 06:28:27 pm »
Eh, at the very least it makes it easier to understand it's usage in our culture. No more sevina Skxawng XD

Offline Prrton

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2010, 07:13:34 pm »
Eh, at the very least it makes it easier to understand it's usage in our culture. No more sevina Skxawng XD

Awwww. Now that's just a shame. I think certain "legacy usages" should remain in force.  ::)

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2010, 07:21:59 pm »
No more sevina Skxawng XD

But he has such flowing locks of hair!

Edit: I would also add, we may not want to read too much into this.  There are wildly sexist cultures that use the same word for handsome/beautiful (the ancient Greeks come to mind, in particular).

Most neolithic cultures, the frank inspiration for the Na'vi, are highly sex-segregated, which is sometimes rather slightly represented in a language, and other times pervades it utterly.  If anything, the Na'vi represent an imposition of very modern and western cultural values (gender equality) onto the already shaky "noble savage" meme.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 07:34:31 pm by wm.annis »
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Offline Prrton

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2010, 11:45:07 pm »

These are probably not really correct. I got most off Google translate, but I did check a lot of them by doing image searches.

It's interesting to see the variations:


Lì'fya  sevin  sayrìp
Spanish  hermosa(o), linda(o), bonita(o)  guapo(a)
French  joli, belle  beau
Azerbaijani  gözəl  gözəl
Catalan  bella  maco
Mandarin  漂亮 (piàoliang, bleached bright)  英俊 (yīngjùn, brave pretty)
Welsh  hardd (harth)  golygus
Finnish  kaunis  komea
Bulgarian  красив (krasiv)  красив (krasiv)
Armenian  գեղեցիկ (geghets’ik)  վայելչակազմ (vayelch’akazm)
Estonian  ilus  kena
Danish  smuk  smuk
Hebrew  יפה (yaw-feh', adj.)  חתיך (hatich, n., hunk)
Tagalog  maganda  guwapo (loan from Spanish)
Icelandic  falleg  myndarlegur
Latvian  skaists  skaists
Indonesian  cantik/indah  tampan/ganteng
Polish  piękne  przystojny
Macedonian  убав (ubav)  убав (ubav)
Turkish  güzel  yakışıklı
Thai  สวย (suuay)  หล่อ (law)
Irish  álainn  dathúil
Hindi  खूबसूरत (khūbasūrata, adj., beautiful)  छैला (chailā, n., dude)

I agree that these distinctions (when they exist) seem more biologically/sexually motivated/influenced than having to do with culture.

The Azerbaijani for "love" is sevim >>> sevimli = "lovable, cute". Freaky how close it is to sevin. I wonder if K. Pawl knows anything at all about Azerbaijani. ??




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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2010, 12:00:34 am »

These are probably not really correct. I got most off Google translate, but I did check a lot of them by doing image searches.

It's interesting to see the variations:


Lì'fya  sevin  sayrìp
Spanish  hermosa(o), linda(o), bonita(o)  guapo(a)
French  joli, belle  beau
Azerbaijani  gözəl  gözəl
Catalan  bella  maco
Mandarin  漂亮 (piàoliang, bleached bright)  英俊 (yīngjùn, brave pretty)
Welsh  hardd (harth)  golygus
Finnish  kaunis  komea
Bulgarian  красив (krasiv)  красив (krasiv)
Armenian  գեղեցիկ (geghets’ik)  վայելչակազմ (vayelch’akazm)
Estonian  ilus  kena
Danish  smuk  smuk
Hebrew  יפה (yaw-feh', adj.)  חתיך (hatich, n., hunk)
Tagalog  maganda  guwapo (loan from Spanish)
Icelandic  falleg  myndarlegur
Latvian  skaists  skaists
Indonesian  cantik/indah  tampan/ganteng
Polish  piękne  przystojny
Macedonian  убав (ubav)  убав (ubav)
Turkish  güzel  yakışıklı
Thai  สวย (suuay)  หล่อ (law)
Irish  álainn  dathúil
Hindi  खूबसूरत (khūbasūrata, adj., beautiful)  छैला (chailā, n., dude)

I agree that these distinctions (when they exist) seem more biologically/sexually motivated/influenced than having to do with culture.

The Azerbaijani for "love" is sevim >>> sevimli = "lovable, cute". Freaky how close it is to sevin. I wonder if K. Pawl knows anything at all about Azerbaijani. ??





Also, apparently only 4/22 languages you listed don't seem to distinguish between the two forms of pretty:

Bulgarian
Danish
Lativan
Macedonian

BTW, isn't it wierd how the Danish word coincides with a word of Na'vi (the word for sibling)?

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2010, 10:09:15 am »
Well,
"belle" and "beau", in french, is the same adjective, hìtxoa ma Prrton  ;D
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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2010, 11:04:44 am »
BTW, isn't it wierd how the Danish word coincides with a word of Na'vi (the word for sibling)?

It may be spelled the same, but it doesn't sound the same.
If you were to spell it in Na'vi the way it's spoken in Danish it would be "smok". But that's still not quite the same sound.

Edit: I just remembered that the word for 7, "kinä" sounds just like the Danish way of saying China, "Kina". :P
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:06:23 am by HTML_Earth »

Offline Prrton

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2010, 11:50:23 am »
Well,
"belle" and "beau", in french, is the same adjective, hìtxoa ma Prrton  ;D

Txoari kea tìkin! It's equally interesting when they are the same and different.

The interesting thing is if/when men are « joli » and what exactly that means.

   ;)

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Re: Eana relìri leiam nga sayrìp nìtxan nang!
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2010, 07:24:29 pm »
Love in Turkish is "sevmek"—so, "i love you" is "(ben) senin seviyorum.  The noun, though, is completely unrelated XD

Also, the word güzel is a little bit weird—it sorta means everything from "pretty" to "good, well done, nice..."  So, you'd use it not only for pretty women, but well-written books, a correct answer to a question, an appetizing meal...  It's kind of a catch-all positive adjective.
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