Expressions of "like we"

Started by Blue Elf, August 16, 2016, 02:20:16 PM

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Blue Elf

Some longer time ago I've found interesting problem - what is difference between nìayoeng and pxel/na ayoeng. Finally, a few days back, I asked the right person and today response came. So here's some piece of knowledge:
Quote from: Blue Elf
I'd like to consult  quite simple question, which has two answers: how to say in Na'vi expressions "like/as you", "like/as we" and similar?
First answer is well known – we have adpositions pxel / na, so we can use sentence like:
Oe tul nìftxan nìwin na (pxel) nga -> I run as fast as you.

In movie, we can see this example of another option:
Ma 'ite, awngeyä fya'ori zene nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pivlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng ->  My daughter, you will teach him our way to speak and walk as we do.

Is it possible to use pxel ayoeng here? Is there any difference between nìayoeng and pxel (na) ayoeng and if yes, what is preferred form and why? And are we free to create our own derivations with nì- ? Some time ago I have read this example of Plumps:
Zun oe lirvu nga, zel tsakem ateng sivi nìnga -> If I would you, I would do something similar like you.

This usage surprised me for a moment, until I remembered example from movie. So – what's your opinion about this question?
And what Paul answered?
Quote
You ask an interesting question. First of all, concerning forms like nìayoeng (pronounced as if it were nay.WENG): yes these are productive with all pronouns: nìoe [nì.O.e], nìnga, etc.

Na/pxel and the nì- forms, with these pronouns, are sometimes interchangeable. In sentences that use nìftxan, however, the only the na/pxel form is used:
Oe tul nìftxan nìwin na/pxel nga.

But not:
*Oe tul nìftxan nìwin nìnga.

In cases that don't involve nìftxan, you sometimes have a choice between na/pxel and the nì- forms. The difference is that na/pxel is used more for how someone or something is perceived--for example, how someone looks. Example:
Key peyä na pum ngeyä lu. -> His face is like yours.

The nì- forms, on the other hand, are better used for actions. The translation of nìayoeng, for example, is usually best as "as we do." If there were an English word "us-ly," that would be a good translation too. :-)
Plltxe po nìayoeng. -> She speaks like us. -OR- She speaks as we do.

Hope that clarifies thing a bit!
So - now it's clear. Learn and use.  :)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Vawmataw

Yay for some more piece of knowledge!
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Plumps

Good to have confirmation. Irayo nìtxan, ma Blue Elf.

Somehow I suspected it would be used like that but I couldn't have put it in words like awngeyä Karyu Pawl :D

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Plumps on August 16, 2016, 02:58:15 PM
Good to have confirmation. Irayo nìtxan, ma Blue Elf.

Somehow I suspected it would be used like that but I couldn't have put it in words like awngeyä Karyu Pawl :D

^ this.

Irayo :)

Vawmataw

#4
Quote from: Karyu Pawlyes these are productive with all pronouns: nìoe [nì.O.e], nìnga, etc.
Since it's all the pronouns (well, not the possessive pronouns), can we use the pronoun fwa followed by the attributive clause (fì'u a [attributive]) and form nìfwa?

Example:

Pol plltxe aylì'ut atsleng nìfwa syeha si.
Pol plltxe aylì'ut atsleng nìfì'u a syeha si.
He lies like he breathes.

Po taron nìfwa srew krrka säeoio.
He hunts like he dances during ceremonies.

Or is nìfya'o necessary?

I suppose that if we can say nìfya'o a..., then nìtuteo a will be considered correct, too?
Finally, does nìpum or even nìpum a... work?
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Plumps

I don't think that's possible (except for nìfya'o a ... because that has another meaning)

We have examples with an adposition + fwa clause which is called for here, I think.

Pol plltxe aylì'ut atsleng na fwa syeha si.
He lies like he breathes.

Po taron na fwa srew krrka aysä'eoio.
He hunts like he dances during ceremonies.

Vawmataw

Ok, so except for nìfya'o a any nì[pronoun] a is not possible?
Is nìpum without a possible anyway?
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Tìtstewan

Txantsana fmawn ulte irayo, ma Blue Elf! :D

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Blue Elf

Quote from: Vawmataw on August 16, 2016, 05:28:28 PM
Quote from: Karyu Pawlyes these are productive with all pronouns: nìoe [nì.O.e], nìnga, etc.
Since it's all the pronouns (well, not the possessive pronouns), can we use the pronoun fwa followed by the attributive clause (fì'u a [attributive]) and form nìfwa?

Example:

Pol plltxe aylì'ut atsleng nìfwa syeha si.
Pol plltxe aylì'ut atsleng nìfì'u a syeha si.
He lies like he breathes.

Po taron nìfwa srew krrka säeoio.
He hunts like he dances during ceremonies.

Or is nìfya'o necessary?

I suppose that if we can say nìfya'o a..., then nìtuteo a will be considered correct, too?
Finally, does nìpum or even nìpum a... work?
I don't think nì- can be combined with f-words, is true these are defined as pronouns, but also as subordinators (they start subordinate clause), so clearly you need nìfya'o a to start subclause. (IMHO f-words should considered subordinators only).
Tuteo is not pronoun, it's (indefinite) noun, so Paul's answers does not apply here.
And related nìpum - pum is something special, it's "repeater" of previously mentioned noun/pronoun, so it can work in some contexts, but not in others. I'd would avoid it's usage.
Personally I would use nì- + pronoun only for personal pronouns, nothing else.
But I can try to ask more about this theme.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Vawmataw

#9
Understood, thanks!
QuoteBut I can try to ask more about this theme.
If there are other grammatical patterns (with nì- or something else) that make sense and are possible/useful.
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Tirea Aean

I don't even count the F-words and Tsa-words as pronouns.

Quote from: Vawmataw on August 16, 2016, 05:43:30 PM
Ok, so except for nìfya'o a any nì[pronoun] a is not possible?

Not thinking so.

But this:
QuoteIs nìpum without a possible anyway?

Is indeed an interesting question. Would be cool if it were possible. Then we'd have another way (other than Na/pxel) to say something like "he looks like a syaksyuk and acts like one too" ;D

Tanri

I'd say that nì- is productive with personal pronouns only (oe, nga, po, ...saylahe:)
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Tanri on August 22, 2016, 02:00:02 PM
I'd say that nì- is productive with personal pronouns only (oe, nga, po, ...saylahe:)
That's what I gather from OP as well

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Vawmataw on August 16, 2016, 05:43:30 PM
Is nìpum without a possible anyway?

I see no meaning in this expression. :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Vawmataw

#14
Quote from: Kemaweyan on August 22, 2016, 08:54:50 PM
Quote from: Vawmataw on August 16, 2016, 05:43:30 PM
Is nìpum without a possible anyway?

I see no meaning in this expression. :-\
Example: Ngal tse'a fìsyaksyukit srak? Kem rä'ä sivi *nìpum!
But it may as well be possible for personal pronouns only.
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Tirea Aean

Quote from: Kemaweyan on August 22, 2016, 08:54:50 PM
Quote from: Vawmataw on August 16, 2016, 05:43:30 PM
Is nìpum without a possible anyway?

I see no meaning in this expression. :-\
For cases like:

"...[Noun]... (does/doesn't) [verb] like one."
E.g.: "It appears to be a teylu but doesn't taste like one."

Na pum is already legal of course, but the question is, Is "nìpum" a legal alternative, parallel to the personal pronouns, like revealed in OP. I'm satisfied either way. Though I suspect *nìpum probably isn't a thing

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tanri on August 22, 2016, 02:00:02 PM
I'd say that nì- is productive with personal pronouns only (oe, nga, po, ...saylahe:)
That's my idea too. I've sent additional question related this to Paul, but no answer....
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Vawmataw

@Tirea In your case *nìpum wouldn't work because there's no action in ''tasting''.
And the usage of *nìpum could be so rare that Na'vi don't use it.

Quote from: Blue Elf on August 23, 2016, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: Tanri on August 22, 2016, 02:00:02 PM
I'd say that nì- is productive with personal pronouns only (oe, nga, po, ...saylahe:)
That's my idea too. I've sent additional question related this to Paul, but no answer....
Let's be patient. In 8 days he might come up with an answer.
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Tìtstewan

Quote from: Vawmataw on August 23, 2016, 12:25:57 PM
Let's be patient. In 8 days he might come up with an answer.
And half year later?
It would be interesting to know whether nì- is productive with personal pronous only*. :)

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Tirea Aean



Quote from: Tìtstewan on February 20, 2017, 11:50:00 AM
And half year later?
It would be interesting to know whether nì- is productive with personal pronous only*. :)

I would say the same based on current evidence. But I'm not saying it's for certain.

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