Author Topic: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)  (Read 18142 times)

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Offline Nayumeie

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Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« on: January 30, 2010, 08:10:13 pm »
A few days ago, I sent Paul Frommer an e-mail asking about the Na'vi numbers (there were other questions, too, but that was the only one that got answered). His response:

Quote
Kaltxì ma oeyä 'eylan Nayumeie,
Ngeyä pxesìpawmìri ngaru seiyi oe irayo.
'Awa tìpawmìri 'iveyng oe set; aylari zusawkrr 'ayeyng.
[zusawkrr = future; in the future]

Numbers!
I have a nice complete chart, but it wouldn't be cool if I simply attached it, as I'm sure you understand. Let me convey the essence, however, in a different form.

The system, as you know, is octal:

'aw, mune, pxey, tsìng, mrr, pukap, kinä, vol
volaw, vomun, vopey, vosìng, vomrr, vofu, vohin, mevol
mevolaw, mevomun, . . ., pxevol
pxevolaw, pxevomun, . . ., tsìvol
mrrvol
puvol
kivol
zam ( = 64, or 100 octal)
vozam ( = 512, or 1000 octal)
zazam ( = 4096, or 10000 octal)

First line above: In disyllables, stress is on the 1st.
Second line above: In disyllables, stress is on the 2nd, except for mevol.
Third line: Stress on the final syllables, except for pxevol.
Etc.

That should be enough for you to figure out the rest.
Kìyevame ulte Eywa ngahu,
Pawl

On a related note: Squeeeee!

EDIT: So here we have the full chart (as I see it):

0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7
0   vol   mevol   pxevol   tsìvol   mrrvol   puvol   kivol
1’aw    volaw   mevolaw   pxevolaw   tsìvolaw   mrrvolaw   puvolaw   kivolaw
2mune   vomun   mevomun   pxevomun   tsìvomun   mrrvomun   puvomun   kivomun
3pxey   vopey   mevopey   pxevopey   tsìvopey   mrrvopey   puvopey   kivopey
4tsìng   vosìng   mevosìng   pxevosìng   tsìvosìng   mrrvosìng   puvosìng   kivosìng
5mrr   vomrr   mevomrr   pxevomrr   tsìvomrr   mrrvomrr   puvomrr   kivomrr
6pukap   vofu   mevofu   pxevofu   tsìvofu   mrrvofu   puvofu   kivofu
7kinä   vohin   mevohin   pxevohin   tsìvohin   mrrvohin   puvohin   kivohin

x1   combining   x8   x64   x512   x4096
1’aw    -aw   vol   zam   vozam   zazam
2mune   -mun   mevol   mezam   mevozam   mezazam
3pxey   -pey   pxevol   pxezam   pxevozam   pxezazam
4tsìng   -sìng   tsìvol   tsìzam   tsìvozam   tsìzazam
5mrr   -mrr   mrrvol   mrrzam   mrrvozam   mrrzazam
6pukap   -fu   puvol   puzam   puvozam   puzazam
7kinä   -hin   kivol   kizam   kivozam   kizazam

I'm not 100% sure how the zam forms combine to add a number in the ones place. It's possible that you just make another word, but the vol forms don't. So is 66 zammun, zamun, or zam mune? I think I'd put my money on zamun, slä ke omum oe.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 08:56:42 pm by Nayumeie »

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 08:16:14 pm »
Double squeeeee! If I wasn't busy with friends I would totally pour over this until my menari bleed.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 08:39:18 pm by Ftiafpi »

Offline Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 08:34:24 pm »
Triple Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! I've been waiting for these for like ever and ever! Time to break out some extremely difficult math equations that not even einstein could figure out!
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Offline pbhead

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2010, 09:19:05 pm »
erm... tsìvol squeeeee?

what part of speach are numbers... like... can we say "forth" by adding... nì?

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 09:37:25 pm »
what part of speach are numbers... like... can we say "forth" by adding... nì?

Our only examples of this are in the Dictionary from the ASG.  We have 'awve first and nì'awve first (i.e., firstly).  Words for "first" are strange in many, many languages, so I don't know if we can extend the use of -ve this way.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
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Offline Tsway'eion

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2010, 09:48:33 pm »
Awesome! this will be fun to practice, i get to learn my 1's 2's and 3's all over again. XD

Offline Nayumeie

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 11:16:15 pm »
Words for "first" are strange in many, many languages, so I don't know if we can extend the use of -ve this way.
I don't know. Na'vi seems remarkably regular thus far. No irregular verbs, no funky pluralizations (cf. English man/men), etc.

Offline TorukMakto!

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 11:33:15 pm »
Irayo!
Great info!!
I got to first finish Molecular configuration, representation and Lewis dot for 50 molecules and lap report , then I'll get my eltu into this! :D :D

Offline roger

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 02:01:05 am »
Note 'Awa tìpawmìri ; evidently numerals require the attributive 'a'. This fits with the film, where Norm says "I studied for five years"; the English is a bit unclear, but in the German dub I hear zìsìt-((o)) a-mrr ft‹ol›ia ohe. I don't know what that ((o)) is; perhaps an as-yet unknown adposition for "for, during".

Also zusawkrr "future", presumably "coming time". I take it that zusaw is a contraction of *z<us>a'u. Is <us> the active participle on intransitive verbs, and the passive participle on transitive verbs, maybe?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 02:04:38 am by roger »

Offline Txaslan

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 03:50:53 am »
Hurrah! Numbers! Another gap in the vocabulary filled!  ;D

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 06:50:19 am »
Nayumeie, that is awesome!  Squee indeed!

I've added your correspondence to the Canon page on the wiki: http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Numerals

Thanks for sharing it with us!

  - Eri

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 07:01:41 am »
Thanks for this! I've added an appendix to the dictionary. :)

Offline Skyinou

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 07:18:58 am »
Well, counting in 8 will be really.... fun
I think all Na'vi speaker will buy a new calculator  ;D
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Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 07:46:57 am »
thats awesome!
for easy calculations you can use google: just enter the calculation into the searchform

you can write octal numbers by adding 0o in front of the digits
eg: 0o114+0o34
or usual base10 numbers
eg: 76+28
or mixed
eg: 0o114+28

the output numbersystem is given by the first number.
so you might want to add either "0o0 +" or "0 +" in front of your operation to transform it what you want
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 03:23:49 pm by 'eylan na'viyä »

Offline Eight

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 08:05:39 am »
Holy crap... I just wee'd a little.

This is incredible.

Offline Skxawng

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2010, 09:33:24 am »
woot!


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Offline tawway

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2010, 01:46:52 pm »
It's a good thing 64x64 (4096) isn't "zamzam", then I'd be in the middle of a Flintstones moment. But isn't that the sort of thing you'd expect a kid just learning numbers to say?

The larger numbers should be at the beginning as per the table. Once you start with sequences like "vol-aw me-vol-aw pxe-vol-aw" doing silly things like swapping orders around makes things more difficult to understand.

zampey should be 4096+3     (zampey-mevol does look odd and where would you stress it to make sense?)

pxezam should be 3 * 4096  (pxezam mevol is easier to understand and you get a cadence with the stressed syllables)

This does remind me of Japanese numbering but octal.


Offline roger

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2010, 01:51:53 pm »
But isn't that the sort of thing you'd expect a kid just learning numbers to say?
Well, supposedly the Na'vi didn't count above 14 until "recently", and this does look like a system that was recently expanded.

Remember that the Na'vi weren't supposed to count above vofu '16' because that's how many fingers and toes they had? Well, vofu is 16 octal: it's 14 decimal. So does that mean the Na'vi have three toes on each foot?

Offline Skyinou

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2010, 02:05:55 pm »
Remember that the Na'vi weren't supposed to count above vofu '16' because that's how many fingers and toes they had? Well, vofu is 16 octal: it's 14 decimal. So does that mean the Na'vi have three toes on each foot?
Since we can see in the movie that they have 4, it's most probably 16 decimal.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2010, 02:11:44 pm »
But isn't that the sort of thing you'd expect a kid just learning numbers to say?
Well, supposedly the Na'vi didn't count above 14 until "recently", and this does look like a system that was recently expanded.

Remember that the Na'vi weren't supposed to count above vofu '16' because that's how many fingers and toes they had? Well, vofu is 16 octal: it's 14 decimal. So does that mean the Na'vi have three toes on each foot?

Interesting, this is another example of the survival guide being rushed methinks. We have canon sources telling use that they have four digits on each hand and foot, the guide must be wrong again or else Frommer misunderstood when he was asked for a number for sixteen, he assumed they meant octal sixteen when they actually meant decimal.





Let's see if I can work with this table a bit:

pxevohin= 3*81+7*80=31 (dec)

So 3819 would be 7*83+3*82+5*81+3*80=kivozam pxezam mrrvolpey

Now I want to know how to express fractions/decimals.  ;D
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