Author Topic: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)  (Read 20654 times)

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Offline HTML_Earth

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2010, 11:37:58 am »
The script on the vocabulary page now supports all number that we know (up to 8028159, "kizazamkivozamkizamkivohin").

http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/#numbers
I found a mistake:
If you only type 6 it says "ukap" instead of "pukap"

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2010, 11:48:10 am »
It's misbehaving if I try to type 8 or 9 in as well. And I can't use the arrow keys to go back and delete part of the number I typed in.
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Offline dky.tehkingd.u

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2010, 12:04:12 am »
It's misbehaving if I try to type 8 or 9 in as well. And I can't use the arrow keys to go back and delete part of the number I typed in.

Exactly my point.


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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2010, 12:07:54 am »
8 or 9 don't exist in octal, hence it yells at you.

Script has been updated; it shouldn't be replacing invalid entries, but lets you correct them.

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2010, 02:26:06 am »
The input type was set as decimal. I thought that was probably the reason but it shouldn't be doing it.

It doesn't mind 18 or 19, it just seems to height 8 and 9 on their own.
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Offline Mithcoriel

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2010, 06:17:34 pm »
Fì'uri nìfrau sweya kawngunil oeyä längu nìwotx! Oeyä elturi teriholpxay ke lu tìsìlpey nìngay nìwotx. Kxawm txo fya'o a tsun rel sivi nìholpxay ke livu tengfya fya'o nìkll nìvomun ha oer tìtsun tlsivam KWAWM kop ziyeva'u. Slä, nìngay nìteng 'it'evi slolu oe. Tìngay awngar lu holpxay nìwotx ta K. Pawl a fìtxeleri oeru prrte' leiu nìhawng, slä sngusä'iset zene nivume! Eywa oehu!  :'(

Any chance you could translate that? I'm sure there are some Navi-newbies who are curious what you said, at least I am. ^^

Quote
But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.

Wow. But we saw that days (and therefore months) aren't that long on Pandora, didn't we? I mean not much longer than an earth day.
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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2010, 06:49:26 pm »
Fì'uri nìfrau sweya kawngunil oeyä längu nìwotx! Oeyä elturi teriholpxay ke lu tìsìlpey nìngay nìwotx. Kxawm txo fya'o a tsun rel sivi nìholpxay ke livu tengfya fya'o nìkll nìvomun ha oer tìtsun tlsivam KWAWM kop ziyeva'u. Slä, nìngay nìteng 'it'evi slolu oe. Tìngay awngar lu holpxay nìwotx ta K. Pawl a fìtxeleri oeru prrte' leiu nìhawng, slä sngusä'iset zene nivume! Eywa oehu!  :'(

Any chance you could translate that? I'm sure there are some Navi-newbies who are curious what you said, at least I am. ^^

Quote
But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.

Wow. But we saw that days (and therefore months) aren't that long on Pandora, didn't we? I mean not much longer than an earth day.

Personally, i can't see any good reason to assume Pandora is tidally locked to Polyphemus; our moon happens to be tidally locked, but my understanding iss that our moon was very much the exception and not the rule.  Polyphemus is so large that if it were in the same place in the Pandoran sky all the time, i don't think we ever would have not seen it in the sky--after all, the Hometree is only, what, 100, 200 km from Hell's Gate?  That wouldn't be far enough to change the view substantially; and, if i remember correctly, we specifically see Polyphemus in the sky at one point, and then at a later time in about the same place we don't.  Now, having said all that, i'm pretty sure James Cameron might have fudged the astrophysics a little for the sake of making a movie.
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Offline Tsu'roen

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2010, 08:39:06 pm »
Quote
But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.
Actually the ASG states in detail that Pandora is NOT tidally locked.

Though that would be indeed unusual.
Quote from: Wikipedia
Most significant moons in the Solar System are tidally locked with their primaries, since they orbit very closely and tidal force increases rapidly (as a cubic) with decreasing distance. Notable exceptions are the irregular outer satellites of the gas giant planets, which orbit much farther away than the large well-known moons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons
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Offline Atanä mungeyu

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #88 on: February 08, 2010, 11:55:01 am »
Quote
But given that Pandora has gotta be tidally locked to Polyphemus, their day would be equal to their month: Polyphemus would not move in the sky, but would go through its phases daily, being fullest at midnight.
Actually the ASG states in detail that Pandora is NOT tidally locked.

Though that would be indeed unusual.
Quote from: Wikipedia
Most significant moons in the Solar System are tidally locked with their primaries, since they orbit very closely and tidal force increases rapidly (as a cubic) with decreasing distance. Notable exceptions are the irregular outer satellites of the gas giant planets, which orbit much farther away than the large well-known moons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking#Moons
well, your second quote:
polyphemus is a gas giant, and we don't know how far pandora is away from it, so it's not weird for it not to be tidally locked.
and well the ASG is kinda the best recourse we have for this kinda stuff so..
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Offline Tsu'roen

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #89 on: February 08, 2010, 04:59:52 pm »
Pandora appears to be in a relatively close orbit from the size of Polyphemus on it's sky.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

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Offline roger

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #90 on: February 08, 2010, 06:33:33 pm »
Yeah, I think that would have to be artistic license.

But it would mean that a month (≈ a week?) is a different period than a day.

Offline Tsu'roen

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #91 on: February 08, 2010, 07:08:05 pm »
We just don't have enough intel do do any of those calculations.

The only thing I could estimate so far from the info in the ASG is the orbit period of Polyphemus: ~490 days
Orbital radius      r ~1.875*1011 m (inhabitable zone)
Solar Mass ACA      M ~2.19*1030 kg
Gravitational constant   G = 6.67E-11 m3/kg s
torbit = SQRT(4*π2*r3/G*M) = 42213845 s = 489 earth days = 1.34 earth years




« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 11:20:13 pm by Tsu'roen »
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at’ite

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Offline roger

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #92 on: February 09, 2010, 01:23:23 am »
We do have the film to give us some idea. Polyphemus looms larger in the Pandoran sky than Saturn does in Titan, though both planets are of approximately the same size. But Polyphemus is more massive, so from both clues the Pandoran orbit should be shorter than Titans, which is two weeks. (Except that Titan is tidally locked.)

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #93 on: February 09, 2010, 02:20:24 am »
Fì'uri nìfrau sweya kawngunil oeyä längu nìwotx! Oeyä elturi teriholpxay ke lu tìsìlpey nìngay nìwotx. Kxawm txo fya'o a tsun rel sivi nìholpxay ke livu tengfya fya'o nìkll nìvomun ha oer tìtsun tlsivam KWAWM kop ziyeva'u. Slä, nìngay nìteng 'it'evi slolu oe. Tìngay awngar lu holpxay nìwotx ta K. Pawl a fìtxeleri oeru prrte' leiu nìhawng, slä sngusä'iset zene nivume! Eywa oehu!  :'(

Any chance you could translate that? I'm sure there are some Navi-newbies who are curious what you said, at least I am. ^^


This is in every way my *best* nightmare. When it comes to numbers my brain is hopeless. Perhaps if the way of representing them visually is not like base 10 then MAYBE some way for me to grok it will come. But, truly I am transformed into a tiny child (actually should now be « prrnen » and not « 'it'evi »). I'm too thrilled at the reality of having all the numbers from K. Paul, but now I have to learn them! May Eywa be with me!  :'(

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #94 on: February 09, 2010, 02:35:49 am »
Oel ke fpìl futa ngal kayin zìsìtit apxevomrr.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 03:40:32 pm by omängum fra'uti »
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Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2010, 08:14:30 am »
When it comes to numbers my brain is hopeless. Perhaps if the way of representing them visually is not like base 10 then MAYBE some way for me to grok it will come.

Don't think of them as numbers.  Think of them as fingers, and don't include your thumbs.

Remember "this little piggy went to market, this little piggy stayed home" etc?  Well, look at your hands, and tell yourself that the name of the first little piggy is 'aw, the next little piggy's name is mune, the next little piggy's name is pxey, etc.  The last piggy's name is vol, and he's special, because he represents the entire set of piggies.

Then learn to count in Na'vi by putting together sets of piggies.

  • How many eggs are there in a standard carton?  One set of hands, plus four.  Vol + tsìng = vosìng (okay, so there's some elision and lenition going on here too, but you should be used to that by now).
  • What's the legal drinking age in most of the U.S. (i.e. how many years)?  Two sets of hands, plus five.  Mune * vol = mevol; mevol + mrr = mevomrr.
  • What (used to be) the speed limit on most highways in miles per hour? Six sets of hands, plus seven.  Pukap * vol = puvol; puvol + kinä = puvohin.

Going the other direction, where you read or hear a Na'vi number and need to understand what it means is even easier:

  • pukap: the sixth little piggy.  He's got kind of a funny name, but he just goes by "pu" in the longer forms (with lenition, of course).
  • tsìvofu: four sets of hands, plus six.
  • puvopey: six sets of hands, plus three.

The difficult part is converting numbers between base ten and base eight.  SO DON'T DO THAT.  Count in Na'vi instead.  Think in Na'vi.  Use your fingers... that's essentially what the Na'vi do, after all, except that they get to include their thumbs. :)

  - Eri

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2010, 10:53:11 am »
I don't know the uvan of piggy counting but that was funny ;D And I think I even got the concept :P

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2010, 11:46:56 am »
Oel ke fpìl kea futa ngal kayin zìsìtit apxevomrr.

Just thought I'd mention that with futa, the negative concord seems not to be upheld, as per:

Ke fparmìl oel futa lu tute a tsun nì-Na'vi set fìfya pivlltxe!

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2010, 03:39:43 pm »
Irayo si, oe ke tìng nari tìkenongur a krr oel plltxe fì'ut.

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Re: Email from Frommer re: Numbers (or: The full number chart!)
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2010, 06:08:51 pm »
When it comes to numbers my brain is hopeless. Perhaps if the way of representing them visually is not like base 10 then MAYBE some way for me to grok it will come.

Don't think of them as numbers.  Think of them as fingers, and don't include your thumbs.

Remember "this little piggy went to market, this little piggy stayed home" etc?  Well, look at your hands, and tell yourself that the name of the first little piggy is 'aw, the next little piggy's name is mune, the next little piggy's name is pxey, etc.  The last piggy's name is vol, and he's special, because he represents the entire set of piggies.

Then learn to count in Na'vi by putting together sets of piggies.

  • How many eggs are there in a standard carton?  One set of hands, plus four.  Vol + tsìng = vosìng (okay, so there's some elision and lenition going on here too, but you should be used to that by now).
  • What's the legal drinking age in most of the U.S. (i.e. how many years)?  Two sets of hands, plus five.  Mune * vol = mevol; mevol + mrr = mevomrr.
  • What (used to be) the speed limit on most highways in miles per hour? Six sets of hands, plus seven.  Pukap * vol = puvol; puvol + kinä = puvohin.

Going the other direction, where you read or hear a Na'vi number and need to understand what it means is even easier:

  • pukap: the sixth little piggy.  He's got kind of a funny name, but he just goes by "pu" in the longer forms (with lenition, of course).
  • tsìvofu: four sets of hands, plus six.
  • puvopey: six sets of hands, plus three.

The difficult part is converting numbers between base ten and base eight.  SO DON'T DO THAT.  Count in Na'vi instead.  Think in Na'vi.  Use your fingers... that's essentially what the Na'vi do, after all, except that they get to include their thumbs. :)

  - Eri


This is wonderful and I'll use it, but ultimately the thing that I'm whining about IS CONVERSION during an interpretation process (whether that's 'quiet' in my head, or needs to spew fluently out of my mouth). I've also come up with my OWN symbols (as alternates to your brilliant piggies) and may be able to see them interact with each other in my head (less embarrassingly than needing to chisanbop leNa'vi with my pinkies tucked in every time a number comes up. Which I'm still willing to do in a pinch  ;) ). Time will tell...

I KNOW this is a challenge for me because I struggle (always) with any number in Japanese over 10 million. And as a complicating factor PALES in comparison to the octal approach.  ;)


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