Author Topic: for (duration), Jesus loan-word & «fmal»  (Read 4204 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6196
  • Karma: 223
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
for (duration), Jesus loan-word & «fmal»
« on: December 01, 2010, 03:04:59 pm »
Fairly simple but it came up in the other news thread that wm.annis posted earlier today and I had received the answer to how we can express duration (for a while, for an hour, for five years etc.) just this morning.

Karyu Pawl kindly took a look over a translation project in which the line »Maria goes through the forest that had no leafs for seven years« appears.

Quote from: Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56
First of all, the way you express duration is to add -o to the time word:

zìsìto amrr = 'for five years'

ayzìsìto = 'for years'

[…] The structure you want is equivalent to the following (which is of course bad English just as it's bad German, but perfectly correct in many languages):

the forest that there was no leaf to it (i.e., that had no leaf)

So the line would be:

Maria kxamlä na'rìng kä a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk

(tsar = to it)
my emphasis

I’ve asked about the Norm line that William pointed out but he didn’t get back to me yet. Given the example above I’d say it’s either an error in the transcript, Norm mispronounces the line or just makes a mistake in his over-ceremonial style.


Also, for all who are working on the Bible translation project, this will be interesting:
Quote from: Frommer, ibid.
As for the translation of Jesus, why not Yeysu? That's close to the way the Italians say it, and besides, there's no reason to retain the Latin ending -us--it's hardly universal!


For fmal, see this post
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 06:44:43 pm by Plumps »

Offline Lance R. Casey

  • Eyktan
  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 948
  • se Sweden
  • Karma: 57
  • Man cenuva métim' andúnë?
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2010, 03:21:57 pm »
Quote from: Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56
[...]
Maria kxamlä na'rìng kä a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
[...]


Non-adjacent subordinator? Wow.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2010, 03:28:21 pm »
Non-adjacent subordinator? Wow.

Yeah, that gave my brain a Pindaric lurch.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6196
  • Karma: 223
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2010, 03:37:00 pm »
Yeah, I have to say, though, it’s a song, so I guess it’s poetic licence …

It’s amazing how you guys always find something new that was not originally intended to be ›the news‹ ;D

Offline Kamean

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 10804
  • Karma: 64
  • Oe lu tute a tsun stivawm Eywayä mokrit
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2010, 03:42:11 pm »
Irayo nìtxan! :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4767
  • us United States
  • Karma: 44
  • Palulukan alu Kenya 06/23/1996 - 01/15/2017
    • The Lionlamb website
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2010, 03:59:28 pm »

Also, for all who are working on the Bible translation project, this will be interesting:
Quote from: Frommer, ibid.
As for the translation of Jesus, why not Yeysu? That's close to the way the Italians say it, and besides, there's no reason to retain the Latin ending -us--it's hardly universal!

edit: typo

Tewti txantsan niwotx!

That is definitely very welcome!

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2010, 04:04:35 pm »
On the "Norm line"....

I actually hear it as "zìsìto amrr ftolia ohe" - but did not know why the -o was there and wasn't 100% confident I wasn't just hearing a poorly pronounced /a/, so I've always left the transcription as "zìsìt amrr".  Now we know better though.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6196
  • Karma: 223
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2010, 05:29:36 pm »
On the "Norm line"....

I actually hear it as "zìsìto amrr ftolia ohe" - but did not know why the -o was there and wasn't 100% confident I wasn't just hearing a poorly pronounced /a/, so I've always left the transcription as "zìsìt amrr".  Now we know better though.

Yup, here’s the confirmation:
Quote from: Frommer, 2 Dec ’10, 0:20
It was supposed to be zìsìto amrr--that's the way I submitted the line and taught it to the actor.
[…]
In any event, the transcript should say zìsìto amrr.

Offline Nyx

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1902
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 56
  • Eywìng te Eana Txon'ite
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2010, 06:06:30 pm »
Nice, this is really useful. And I'm glad Norm wasn't wrong ^^

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2010, 09:46:28 pm »
On the "Norm line"....

I actually hear it as "zìsìto amrr ftolia ohe" - but did not know why the -o was there and wasn't 100% confident I wasn't just hearing a poorly pronounced /a/, so I've always left the transcription as "zìsìt amrr".  Now we know better though.

Yup, here’s the confirmation:
Quote from: Frommer, 2 Dec ’10, 0:20
It was supposed to be zìsìto amrr--that's the way I submitted the line and taught it to the actor.
[…]
In any event, the transcript should say zìsìto amrr.
Txantsan!  I had always suspected there was something there, but was wary to derive a rule from a single sample that might not even have been heard right.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2010, 10:47:07 pm »
Quote from: Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56
[...]
Maria kxamlä na'rìng kä a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
[...]


Non-adjacent subordinator? Wow.


Biiig shock :o

I hope Frommer didn't mess up...

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Ikran Ahiyìk

  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 800
  • Karma: 30
  • Key aronsrelngawnop. Key aswey.
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2010, 02:15:01 am »
Quote from: Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56
[...]
Maria kxamlä na'rìng kä a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
[...]


Non-adjacent subordinator? Wow.


Biiig shock :o

I hope Frommer didn't mess up...


So confusing for this :P
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


See the new version with fingerings!
Avatar credits to O-l-i-v-i.

Offline Mako

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1617
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 43
  • Ketsran, tstunwi livu.
    • Kelutral.org
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2010, 08:14:11 am »
Guess who just stopped saying Jesus? :D

Offline Ftiafpi

  • Olo'eyktan
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 4759
  • Karma: 123
  • Plltxe 'eylan ulte fpxäkìm.
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2010, 10:05:53 am »
On the "Norm line"....

I actually hear it as "zìsìto amrr ftolia ohe" - but did not know why the -o was there and wasn't 100% confident I wasn't just hearing a poorly pronounced /a/, so I've always left the transcription as "zìsìt amrr".  Now we know better though.

Yeah, I too was hearing a -o and thought it was just an actor mistake. Good to know my ears aren't crazy.

*googles "Non-adjacent subordinator?"*

Ummm, no idea what this means. Tsun oeru livu san non-linguistics explanation sìk srak?

Quote from: Sä'nek
Guess who just stopped saying Jesus?

Hah, I should do that, too. Skxawng will be happy, another word he can use in place of English swear words.

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6196
  • Karma: 223
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2010, 11:10:12 am »
*googles "Non-adjacent subordinator?"*

Ummm, no idea what this means. Tsun oeru livu san non-linguistics explanation sìk srak?

The way I understood it is that normally we’d say
Maria kä kxamlä na’rìng a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
meaning, the subordinator/relative pronoun (a) comes directly after the noun (na’rìng). Here we have an instance where there’s a word between the noun and the relative clause … which is totally normal in German – and English as well, AFAIK.
Linguists, please, correct me :D


Offline Ftiafpi

  • Olo'eyktan
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 4759
  • Karma: 123
  • Plltxe 'eylan ulte fpxäkìm.
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2010, 11:14:17 am »
*googles "Non-adjacent subordinator?"*

Ummm, no idea what this means. Tsun oeru livu san non-linguistics explanation sìk srak?

The way I understood it is that normally we’d say
Maria kä kxamlä na’rìng a zìsìto akinä ke lalmu tsar kea rìk
meaning, the subordinator/relative pronoun (a) comes directly after the noun (na’rìng). Here we have an instance where there’s a word between the noun and the relative clause … which is totally normal in German – and English as well, AFAIK.
Linguists, please, correct me :D


Oh, I thought we'd seen this in other places before? I could have sworn there was something recently from Paul about this? Or was that about genitive pronouns being located next to the possessed noun? Can't remember.

Tsamsiyu92

  • Guest
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2010, 03:24:36 am »
Krro atxan oe poley fì'uri!

For much time I have waited.

I see a problem here, doesn't krro also mean "sometimes"?

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2010, 07:24:17 am »
Krro atxan oe poley fì'uri!

For much time I have waited.

I see a problem here, doesn't krro also mean "sometimes"?

Krro krro means from time to time, occasionally.  Even if we use krro to mean "sometimes," because it's used with a count word in this situation (txan) it's not going to be confused for anything else.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2010, 06:07:29 pm »
I see a problem here, doesn't krro also mean "sometimes"?

Kehe.  More like "some time".

But then that brings up the question of what "hrro" would then translate as, especially compared to "krro krro"...

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: for (duration) & Jesus loan-word
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2010, 03:24:09 am »
I see a problem here, doesn't krro also mean "sometimes"?

Kehe.  More like "some time".

But then that brings up the question of what "hrro" would then translate as, especially compared to "krro krro"...



po tamul hrro: he ran for periods of time. The meaning of this is obscure,  but I'd probably interpret as implying several events which lasted for differing amounts of time. That said, I can only really see it being used with a relative clause on krr.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.17 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi