Author Topic: Frommerian Email  (Read 4799 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2010, 04:40:25 pm »
Yep, that's what I thought.  And what I meant to say, however poorly.  Still not clear on "syntactical" transitivity (lexical I get, semantic I get... syntactical?)

Well, I know I have been a bit loosey-goosey with the terminology, while I groped my to succinct terms for the nature of my transitivity confusion.  Perhaps others have, too.  ;)
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Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2010, 04:53:26 pm »
A syntactically transitive verb is one that has taken a direct object in a specific sentence.

Thanks.

Is there a difference between syntactically transitive and semantically transitive?

Frommer said that only some verbs were lexically transitive (implying that the default position is syntactically transitive) and so kame is likely to be syntactic with oe kame being correct.

He did not say this.  You are over-reading his email.

He said that some verbs are obviously always transitive, some verbs are obviously always intransitive, and some verbs are neither obviously always transitive nor obviously always intransitive.  He did not say that those verbs are sometimes transitive and sometimes intransitive; he said it was not obvious what their transitivity is, and so therefore he will have to tell us what their transitivity is.

Now, when he tells us, he may tell us that such-and-such verb (which was until that moment previously unclear) is in fact always transitive.  Or always intransitive.  In which case, we will then know that that verb is lexically transitive (or intransitive).  He may in fact provide an always-transitive or always-intransitive lexical definition for every verb.  Which would make your statement "for some verbs it is lexically bound and others syntactically" wrong.

On the other hand, when he tells us, he may tell us that such-and-such verb is sometimes transitive and sometimes intransitive.  If he tells us that for at least one verb, that would make your statement right.

But we don't know what he's going to tell us yet.

Saying that "the default position is syntactically transitive" is completely unsupported.  You may be right, you may be wrong, but you don't know.  Saying that his email implies such a thing is subjective interpretation, which we should avoid.

  - Eri

Offline pbhead

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2010, 04:57:42 pm »
ok... wiat.. i am confused about futa... is it fi'ut-a? but... i dont see 'ut in the vocab section/pocket book...

or is it fi'u-t-a so... this thing (transitive patient)?

 ???

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2010, 05:03:41 pm »
I think I may have discovered the source of our disagreement.

Quote
Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.

I interpreted the highlighted sentence as meaning "For verbs like 'begin', you (Na'vi students) will have to be told (by me, Frommer) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

I suspect tìkawngä mungeyu interpreted it as "For verbs like 'begin', you (the listener or reader of a particular sentence) will have to be told (by the rest of the words in the sentence) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

Is that it?

  - Eri

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2010, 05:37:57 pm »
ok... wiat.. i am confused about futa... is it fi'ut-a? but... i dont see 'ut in the vocab section/pocket book...

or is it fi'u-t-a so... this thing (transitive patient)?

 ???

fì'u-t a
this-ACCUSATIVE which.that

that which

EG:

I see that which I see.
Oel kame fì'ut a (= futa) oe kivame (assumedly)

Offline Doolio

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2010, 07:23:02 pm »
I think I may have discovered the source of our disagreement.

Quote
Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.

I interpreted the highlighted sentence as meaning "For verbs like 'begin', you (Na'vi students) will have to be told (by me, Frommer) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

I suspect tìkawngä mungeyu interpreted it as "For verbs like 'begin', you (the listener or reader of a particular sentence) will have to be told (by the rest of the words in the sentence) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

Is that it?

  - Eri


well, i would go with the latter:)

"the movie begins" - intransitive

"i begin a new life" - transitive

same with "end":

"his life ends" - intransitive
"end this, now!" - transitive
...taj rad...

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2010, 07:26:10 pm »
I think I may have discovered the source of our disagreement.

Quote
Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.

I interpreted the highlighted sentence as meaning "For verbs like 'begin', you (Na'vi students) will have to be told (by me, Frommer) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

I suspect tìkawngä mungeyu interpreted it as "For verbs like 'begin', you (the listener or reader of a particular sentence) will have to be told (by the rest of the words in the sentence) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

Is that it?

  - Eri


well, i would go with the latter:)


I don't think that's what Frommer meant in his email.

  - Eri

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2010, 07:36:28 pm »
I don't think it is either.  If he meant that you had to be told by the speaker (By means of case endings), why would he go onto say that for those he has indicated the type in he complete glossary?  If it could be used either way at the whim of the speaker, why would he need to indicate anything?

Context, context, context.  It's as important in understanding meaning as the words.

"i begin a new life" - transitive
Oe sngä'i (fa/ìlä/ka/mì - not sure which would be appropriate) tìrey a-(adj for new)
Intransitive
Oe sngä'i r<iv?>ey - I begin living
Intransitive

same with "end":

"end this, now!" - transitive
Ummmm...
Fì'u (Verb for end) set! - intransitive

Try saying that sentence in English with a subject and see how much sense it makes.  It's just the imperative of "This ends".  (But he didn't give "end" as an example there.)
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline suomichris

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2010, 07:58:13 pm »
Yeah, I interpret Frommer's email to mean that, for words which are ambitransitive in English, the glossary will need to specify transitivity for the Na'vi verb.  See also words like "dance."

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2010, 08:07:08 pm »
Oe ke sreu fa kea makareyna
vs
Oel ke sreu kea makareynat

(I don't dance the Macarena)
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline suomichris

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2010, 08:10:28 pm »
Oe ke sreu fa kea makareyna
vs
Oel ke sreu kea makareynat

(I don't dance the Macarena)
I'm not sure what you're getting at here...  If dance is transitive, the second is correct.  Regardless of whether dance is transitive or intransitive, though, first one is wrong.  If it WERE (English subjunctive!) intransitive, it would likely be something like:

Oe ke sreu nìmakareyna.

Which, really, is awesome.

Offline Kiliyä

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2010, 08:11:22 pm »
Did Frommer mention a... glossary?  *cha-ching!*
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Offline suomichris

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2010, 08:12:35 pm »
!!! Also, people who were wondering about datives: note that Frommer marks the (u) in the dative as optional there....

So, we have some places where (u) is optional.  I bet, though, that it is okay to use it everywhere, even if it sounds weird/formal (perhaps like a non-native English speaker saying "He is" all of the time, instead of the more natural "he's")....?

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2010, 08:22:27 pm »
I'm not sure what you're getting at here...  If dance is transitive, the second is correct.  Regardless of whether dance is transitive or intransitive, though, first one is wrong.  If it WERE (English subjunctive!) intransitive, it would likely be something like:

Oe ke sreu nìmakareyna.

Which, really, is awesome.
Heh, that never actually occurred to me to use the adverb...  That's still one place my English mind keeps trying to use adpositions on...  I've gotten it through my head that languages can be used that way, and I struggle to find the best adposition to fit, without always considering other grammatical structures.  But that makes much more sense than how I worded it.

I was merely exemplifying how it could be either, but apparently badly since one of them wouldn't be right. :/
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Offline Kiliyä

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2010, 08:27:22 pm »
!!! Also, people who were wondering about datives: note that Frommer marks the (u) in the dative as optional there....

So, we have some places where (u) is optional.  I bet, though, that it is okay to use it everywhere, even if it sounds weird/formal (perhaps like a non-native English speaker saying "He is" all of the time, instead of the more natural "he's")....?
That had been my thought on it, although I didn't weigh in on the discussion.  It's just natural euphony according to the tastes of the speaker.
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2010, 08:30:21 pm »
I just want to say this:

You guys are great. I post an email that I thought would make a few of the disputes nulled, and what do you all do? Make 45 posts on how we're just as badly off as ever.

Keep up the good work. We're all rooting for you.

That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)

Offline suomichris

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2010, 08:30:48 pm »
I was merely exemplifying how it could be either, but apparently badly since one of them wouldn't be right. :/
Well, what you might have said (if I understand you) is that, if dance is transitive in Na'vi, we could have:

Oel sreu makareynat.
OR
Oe sreu.

If it is intransitive, though, we don't yet know what the possibilities would be.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2010, 08:31:26 pm »
I just want to say this:

You guys are great. I post an email that I thought would make a few of the disputes nulled, and what do you all do? Make 45 posts on how we're just as badly off as ever.

Keep up the good work. We're all rooting for you.

That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)
Mlltxe was one that came up in a previous discussion....

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2010, 08:41:49 pm »
I was merely exemplifying how it could be either, but apparently badly since one of them wouldn't be right. :/
Well, what you might have said (if I understand you) is that, if dance is transitive in Na'vi, we could have:

Oel sreu makareynat.
OR
Oe sreu.

If it is intransitive, though, we don't yet know what the possibilities would be.
Yeah if it's transitive it's probably ambitransitive the same way "hunt" is.

For intransitive I was merely expressing how it could still express the same thing as it could when transitive, even if I chose a poor example of such a way.

Edit: Do you think it's possible that the adverb could be used with mllte too?  We know nì+personal pronoun can be used for like (It's in the SG vocab as that) so...  Oe mllte nìnga...  I agree like you?  Probably not, but it's a thought since I'm still trying to figure out how what we have grammar wise could be used to express who you agree with.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 08:43:54 pm by omängum fra'uti »
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Frommerian Email
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2010, 08:48:07 pm »
That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)

rikx!  "I move" vs. "I move the branch."  Is it as simple as oe rikx vs. vulit oel rikx?
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

 

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