Frommerian Email

[wm.annis]

Yep, that's what I thought.  And what I meant to say, however poorly.  Still not clear on "syntactical" transitivity (lexical I get, semantic I get... syntactical?)

Well, I know I have been a bit loosey-goosey with the terminology, while I groped my to succinct terms for the nature of my transitivity confusion.  Perhaps others have, too. 

[Erimeyz]

A syntactically transitive verb is one that has taken a direct object in a specific sentence.

Thanks.

Is there a difference between syntactically transitive and semantically transitive?

Frommer said that only some verbs were lexically transitive (implying that the default position is syntactically transitive) and so kame is likely to be syntactic with oe kame being correct.

He did not say this.  You are over-reading his email.

He said that some verbs are obviously always transitive, some verbs are obviously always intransitive, and some verbs are neither obviously always transitive nor obviously always intransitive.  He did not say that those verbs are sometimes transitive and sometimes intransitive; he said it was not obvious what their transitivity is, and so therefore he will have to tell us what their transitivity is.

Now, when he tells us, he may tell us that such-and-such verb (which was until that moment previously unclear) is in fact always transitive.  Or always intransitive.  In which case, we will then know that that verb is lexically transitive (or intransitive).  He may in fact provide an always-transitive or always-intransitive lexical definition for every verb.  Which would make your statement "for some verbs it is lexically bound and others syntactically" wrong.

On the other hand, when he tells us, he may tell us that such-and-such verb is sometimes transitive and sometimes intransitive.  If he tells us that for at least one verb, that would make your statement right.

But we don't know what he's going to tell us yet.

Saying that "the default position is syntactically transitive" is completely unsupported.  You may be right, you may be wrong, but you don't know.  Saying that his email implies such a thing is subjective interpretation, which we should avoid.

  - Eri

[pbhead]

ok... wiat.. i am confused about futa... is it fi'ut-a? but... i dont see 'ut in the vocab section/pocket book...

or is it fi'u-t-a so... this thing (transitive patient)?

[Erimeyz]

I think I may have discovered the source of our disagreement.

Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.

I interpreted the highlighted sentence as meaning "For verbs like 'begin', you (Na'vi students) will have to be told (by me, Frommer) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

I suspect tìkawngä mungeyu interpreted it as "For verbs like 'begin', you (the listener or reader of a particular sentence) will have to be told (by the rest of the words in the sentence) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

Is that it?

  - Eri

[Taronyu]

ok... wiat.. i am confused about futa... is it fi'ut-a? but... i dont see 'ut in the vocab section/pocket book...

or is it fi'u-t-a so... this thing (transitive patient)?

fì'u-t a
this-ACCUSATIVE which.that

that which

EG:

I see that which I see.
Oel kame fì'ut a (= futa) oe kivame (assumedly)

[Doolio]

I think I may have discovered the source of our disagreement.

Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.

I interpreted the highlighted sentence as meaning "For verbs like 'begin', you (Na'vi students) will have to be told (by me, Frommer) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

I suspect tìkawngä mungeyu interpreted it as "For verbs like 'begin', you (the listener or reader of a particular sentence) will have to be told (by the rest of the words in the sentence) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

Is that it?

  - Eri

well, i would go with the latter:)

"the movie begins" - intransitive

"i begin a new life" - transitive

same with "end":

"his life ends" - intransitive
"end this, now!" - transitive

[Erimeyz]

I think I may have discovered the source of our disagreement.

Well, I've been pretty much leaving it up to the semantics to determine what's transitive and what's not, when it's clear. "Sleep" is clearly intransitive, for example; "kill" is clearly transitive. So I don't need to annotate those in the lexicon. For verbs like 'begin,' however, you have to be told which one you're talking about. So for those, I've indicated the type in the complete glossary. Until that's published, let me know what's not obvious and I'll get back to you.

I interpreted the highlighted sentence as meaning "For verbs like 'begin', you (Na'vi students) will have to be told (by me, Frommer) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

I suspect tìkawngä mungeyu interpreted it as "For verbs like 'begin', you (the listener or reader of a particular sentence) will have to be told (by the rest of the words in the sentence) which one (transitive vs. intransitive) you're talking about."

Is that it?

  - Eri

well, i would go with the latter:)

I don't think that's what Frommer meant in his email.

  - Eri

[omängum fra'uti]

I don't think it is either.  If he meant that you had to be told by the speaker (By means of case endings), why would he go onto say that for those he has indicated the type in he complete glossary?  If it could be used either way at the whim of the speaker, why would he need to indicate anything?

Context, context, context.  It's as important in understanding meaning as the words.

"i begin a new life" - transitive
Oe sngä'i (fa/ìlä/ka/mì - not sure which would be appropriate) tìrey a-(adj for new)
Intransitive
Oe sngä'i r<iv?>ey - I begin living
Intransitive

same with "end":

"end this, now!" - transitive
Ummmm...
Fì'u (Verb for end) set! - intransitive

Try saying that sentence in English with a subject and see how much sense it makes.  It's just the imperative of "This ends".  (But he didn't give "end" as an example there.)

[suomichris]

Yeah, I interpret Frommer's email to mean that, for words which are ambitransitive in English, the glossary will need to specify transitivity for the Na'vi verb.  See also words like "dance."

[omängum fra'uti]

Oe ke sreu fa kea makareyna
vs
Oel ke sreu kea makareynat

(I don't dance the Macarena)

[suomichris]

Oe ke sreu fa kea makareyna
vs
Oel ke sreu kea makareynat

(I don't dance the Macarena)

I'm not sure what you're getting at here...  If dance is transitive, the second is correct.  Regardless of whether dance is transitive or intransitive, though, first one is wrong.  If it WERE (English subjunctive!) intransitive, it would likely be something like:

Oe ke sreu nìmakareyna.

Which, really, is awesome.

[Kiliyä]

Did Frommer mention a... glossary?  *cha-ching!*

[suomichris]

!!! Also, people who were wondering about datives: note that Frommer marks the (u) in the dative as optional there....

So, we have some places where (u) is optional.  I bet, though, that it is okay to use it everywhere, even if it sounds weird/formal (perhaps like a non-native English speaker saying "He is" all of the time, instead of the more natural "he's")....?

[omängum fra'uti]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here...  If dance is transitive, the second is correct.  Regardless of whether dance is transitive or intransitive, though, first one is wrong.  If it WERE (English subjunctive!) intransitive, it would likely be something like:

Oe ke sreu nìmakareyna.

Which, really, is awesome.

Heh, that never actually occurred to me to use the adverb...  That's still one place my English mind keeps trying to use adpositions on...  I've gotten it through my head that languages can be used that way, and I struggle to find the best adposition to fit, without always considering other grammatical structures.  But that makes much more sense than how I worded it.

I was merely exemplifying how it could be either, but apparently badly since one of them wouldn't be right. :/

[Kiliyä]

!!! Also, people who were wondering about datives: note that Frommer marks the (u) in the dative as optional there....

So, we have some places where (u) is optional.  I bet, though, that it is okay to use it everywhere, even if it sounds weird/formal (perhaps like a non-native English speaker saying "He is" all of the time, instead of the more natural "he's")....?

That had been my thought on it, although I didn't weigh in on the discussion.  It's just natural euphony according to the tastes of the speaker.

[Taronyu]

I just want to say this:

You guys are great. I post an email that I thought would make a few of the disputes nulled, and what do you all do? Make 45 posts on how we're just as badly off as ever.

Keep up the good work. We're all rooting for you.

That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)

[suomichris]

I was merely exemplifying how it could be either, but apparently badly since one of them wouldn't be right. :/

Well, what you might have said (if I understand you) is that, if dance is transitive in Na'vi, we could have:

Oel sreu makareynat.
OR
Oe sreu.

If it is intransitive, though, we don't yet know what the possibilities would be.

[suomichris]

I just want to say this:

You guys are great. I post an email that I thought would make a few of the disputes nulled, and what do you all do? Make 45 posts on how we're just as badly off as ever.

Keep up the good work. We're all rooting for you.

That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)

Mlltxe was one that came up in a previous discussion....

[omängum fra'uti]

I was merely exemplifying how it could be either, but apparently badly since one of them wouldn't be right. :/

Well, what you might have said (if I understand you) is that, if dance is transitive in Na'vi, we could have:

Oel sreu makareynat.
OR
Oe sreu.

If it is intransitive, though, we don't yet know what the possibilities would be.

Yeah if it's transitive it's probably ambitransitive the same way "hunt" is.

For intransitive I was merely expressing how it could still express the same thing as it could when transitive, even if I chose a poor example of such a way.

Edit: Do you think it's possible that the adverb could be used with mllte too?  We know nì+personal pronoun can be used for like (It's in the SG vocab as that) so...  Oe mllte nìnga...  I agree like you?  Probably not, but it's a thought since I'm still trying to figure out how what we have grammar wise could be used to express who you agree with.

[wm.annis]

That having been said: Should we compile a list of verbs I should send? (I know he's going to read this, anyway, though.)

rikx!  "I move" vs. "I move the branch."  Is it as simple as oe rikx vs. vulit oel rikx?