Author Topic: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.  (Read 4026 times)

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Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2010, 11:19:41 am »

@Keyl

Quote
since this deletion doesn't happen anywhere else in the language.

Deletion of vocals in compounds appear a lot in Na'vi!
If you want to, I'll give you examples (after my dinner).


Show me some examples with case endings. :)

-Keyl

EDIT: To clarify, I know it happens in other places, but not with case endings as far as I know.  I should have been more specific instead of saying "anywhere else".
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 11:32:45 am by Keylstxatsmen »
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2010, 11:35:45 am »
@Mirri
Quote
Half of it is in German

Well ... fixed all left German words. Found two (in numbers: 2).
Do not know exactly how to think about your complaint, Mirri. I mean: I didn't want to annoy people with my transcript or so. I just wanted to provide help and therefore posted my version. Since I did it in my mothertongue, I had to change quite a lot of words and to do a lot of reformatting. (= time and work)
I thought, my transcript would be of interest for you. But instead what I'm receiving is a complain about "half of it" being in German.  :-\
Ok. If this is the way good-will is granted, then I'll stop contributing things to non-German-speaking people.

@Keyl
Quote
Show me some examples with case endings.

THIS I can not do. But this is no proof, that it's not possible in the one case of -eyä in pronouns.
As said above: I think it's more likely, that the ending is -eyä, than that the ending is -yä, urging any vocal in front of it to be "e" (and this just in pronouns).


Offline Mirri

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2010, 11:57:17 am »
@Mirri
Quote
Half of it is in German

Well ... fixed all left German words. Found two (in numbers: 2).
Do not know exactly how to think about your complaint, Mirri. I mean: I didn't want to annoy people with my transcript or so. I just wanted to provide help and therefore posted my version. Since I did it in my mothertongue, I had to change quite a lot of words and to do a lot of reformatting. (= time and work)
I thought, my transcript would be of interest for you. But instead what I'm receiving is a complain about "half of it" being in German.  :-\
Ok. If this is the way good-will is granted, then I'll stop contributing things to non-German-speaking people.

Tsap'alute, oeyä tsmukan.

It wasn't meant like that. I just had to give up understanding it, mostly due to the grammar terms. I didn't know if it was in German or what, but evidently it's my own ignorance. For instance, I've only ever heard of <ei> is the laudative.
Do you know if there a list of all these terms somewhere you can refer me to?
Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.

Offline Is.

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2010, 12:02:17 pm »
I'm curious as how you conclude that ayeylan and eylan are both plural? There's no lenition there.

The word is 'eylan — note the glottal stop at the start.  Lenited glottal stop disappears.

That's just cheating. How do you hear a glottal stop at the beginning of a word? That's like inserting silence into more silence.


Seems like a valid point to me.

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2010, 12:13:38 pm »
Ok. I understand, that the abbreviations might be a problem.
Unfortunately there is no universal standard with these abbreviations used everywhere the same way.
I'll give you a list of all abbreviations I used (they are generally accepted in German linguistics, most of them are also used international, also by the English Wikipedia article about Na'vi, e. g. the APPROB is also found there).
Besides: These abbreviation are mostly derived from the English names of the grammatical phenomens, but nevertheless they are used by us Germans too.

Here are all of them (in alphabetical order):

1 = 1st person
2 = 2nd person
3 = 3nd person
ACC = accusative case
ADJ = adjectivation
ADV = adverbial
APPROB = approbative = positive attitude
ATTR = attributive
DAT = dative case
DIST = distant demonstrative
ERG = ergative case
EXIST = existence indicating verb
FUT = future tense
GEN = genitive case
IPFV = imperfective aspect
INCL = inclusive
IUSS = iussive (demand)
NEG = negation
NMLZ = nominalized
NP = nomen proprium (name of person, town, ...)
OPT = optative (wish)
PEJ = pejorative = negative attitude
PFV = perfective aspect
PL = plural
PROX = proximate demonstrative
PST = past tense
SUBJ = subjunctive
TOP = topic
VOC = vocative

@Is.
Quote
Seems like a valid point to me.

It isn't. Please, read Frommer's language log article!
Besides: The glottal stop isn't silent.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 12:24:18 pm by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2010, 12:22:19 pm »
@Keyl
Quote
Show me some examples with case endings.

THIS I can not do. But this is no proof, that it's not possible in the one case of -eyä in pronouns.
As said above: I think it's more likely, that the ending is -eyä, than that the ending is -yä, urging any vocal in front of it to be "e" (and this just in pronouns).


Yeah, there is no real way to prove things either way other than ask Dr. Frommer.  But to get back to my original point o-eyä is a strange way to break it up, since o != I.  I would go with oe-eyä or o(e)-eyä, if I were breaking it up the way you are, since the root is oe.  Just my opinion. :)

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2010, 12:24:00 pm »
Quote
That's a little strange I think.  oe = I,  oeyä = my. So in that case it's only adding a -yä.  It changes the nga to nge when it attaches, but that should be marked a sound change rather than the cut off of the pronoun.

Well, maybe. But this sound-change appears regulary in all pronouns and only in pronouns.

In the Language Log guest post Frommer says that "changes to the noun base sometimes occur with the Genitive."  I suppose it could be a slip of the tongue, but he didn't limit such changes to pronouns.  I do not think it's safe to posit a new ending -eyä when he has told us the stem can change.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2010, 12:28:18 pm »
Quote
That's a little strange I think.  oe = I,  oeyä = my. So in that case it's only adding a -yä.  It changes the nga to nge when it attaches, but that should be marked a sound change rather than the cut off of the pronoun.

Well, maybe. But this sound-change appears regulary in all pronouns and only in pronouns.

In the Language Log guest post Frommer says that "changes to the noun base sometimes occur with the Genitive."  I suppose it could be a slip of the tongue, but he didn't limit such changes to pronouns.  I do not think it's safe to posit a new ending -eyä when he has told us the stem can change.

Vindicated! :)  Thanks William, I need to re-read that post again, now that I've had a few weeks with the language.

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2010, 12:32:22 pm »

Ok. Then so it is. Thank you, William!

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2010, 01:19:16 pm »
Please, read Frommer Language Log article. He clearly states, that lenitation for the glottis-sound results in disappearing of this sound.
Besides that: the glottis-stop isn't silent!

Technically speaking, the glottal stop IS silent, that's the whole point.

But the noticible change in sound to the leading/following vowel is definitely not.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2010, 01:30:46 pm »
No, it's not silent. It's a (voiceless) sound. You can produce the glottal stop without emitting vocals and it is hearable. In German this sound is called "Knacklaut" (crackle-sound?). Of course the glottal stop affects the sound of a word with a following vocal, but it's also a sound by itself and - as said - you can try to produce a sequence of just this sound (without any vocals around it) and you can very well hear the crackling, which is produced by the air, when it is released after the glottis opens again.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 01:33:15 pm by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2010, 02:31:19 pm »
That seems like it's splitting hairs...  I wouldn't consider that puff of air part of the glottal stop (Of course I'm also not a linguist) but rather an unvoiced vowel stand-in.

However it might be useful as a learning aid to teach people about glottal stops at the beginning of words.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2010, 02:42:55 pm »
Sorry, I don't want to split hairs. And maybe, I wasn't clear enough. The sound you hear is NOT the puff of the air, but is produced by the glottis strings, when they get "vibrations" from the pressured air. The sound is produced by the vibrating glottis strings, not by the air itself. It's not a "puff"-sound, it's a "crackle"-sound.

Offline wisnij

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2010, 03:43:49 pm »
It doesn't help matters that a native speaker of English may well pronounce a glottal stop at the beginning of a word with an initial vowel.  If such a person tries to say eveng, they may actually be producing 'eveng without realizing it, because that isn't a contrastive feature in English.  And it's likewise difficult to distinguish between hearing the two.
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

Offline roger

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2010, 04:48:16 pm »
Please, read Frommer Language Log article. He clearly states, that lenitation for the glottis-sound results in disappearing of this sound.
Besides that: the glottis-stop isn't silent!

Technically speaking, the glottal stop IS silent, that's the whole point.

But the noticible change in sound to the leading/following vowel is definitely not.
Technically speaking, /p t k/ are silent too. They are all only detectable in their effect on surrounding vowels and it their release, and in final position they don't even have the release.

Offline roger

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Re: Transcribing Paul Frommer's Message to the Na'tion.
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2010, 04:54:10 pm »
Ok. I understand, that the abbreviations might be a problem.

Here are all of them (in alphabetical order):
[...]
Mirri, in English you'll often see JUS for "IUSS" (the "jussive"), SJV for "subjunctive" (people often use SUBJ (or SUB) for "subject"), and IMPV for IPFV ("imperfective").

In the WP article, the abbreviations should link to the appropriate article, and in the intro, most of those articles repeat the abbreviation and link to a much longer list of common glossing terms. But it looks like Na'rìghawnu has it covered for Na'vi.

 

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