Author Topic: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter  (Read 16941 times)

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Offline Erimeyz

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Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #241 on: January 24, 2010, 11:56:14 pm »

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #242 on: January 25, 2010, 12:07:07 am »
http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=A_Message_From_Paul

Have at it.

  - Eri
Ah, I am a fool; couldn't find that.  Thanks!

It's brand-spanking new.  Check the timestamps.

Plus, you know, it's a wiki.  If you can't find it, you can make it!

  - Eri

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #243 on: January 25, 2010, 03:17:21 pm »
Well, he said that in response to my mishearing <iv> for <ev> in a different verb; I immediately asked why we get it then in kìyevame, but he hasn't[evidential infix here] gotten to that part of his email backlog yet. If he did mean it across the board, as his wording would suggest, then maybe the <ev> here is sound change on <iv>, "may (we) see (e.o.) soon", as suomichris suggested.

That would be my guess too, and that "again" in the English translation is just implied. Perhaps there is both i-affection and ì-affection in Na'vi? I'm thinking kìyevame < *kìyivame and possibly tsap'alute sengi < *tsap'alute sängi. On the other hand, it may be simple sandhi -- or something else entirely which we haven't heard about yet. But it's fun to speculate, no? ;)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #244 on: January 26, 2010, 11:21:47 am »
Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan Markusì ta Ngalwey . . . 'Ivong Na'vi!
::
In the words of our young friend Markus from Galway . . . Let Na'vi bloom!

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and it took me quite some time to notice it as well, but it has been giving me pause since. Given the context, it is fairly clear that Frommer is here referring to the Na'vi language, but in all other instances this is rendered as lì'fya leNa'vi as we would expect. In this case, however, we just see the proper noun, so isn't he literally saying "let The People bloom"?

What's up? Is it a shorthand? Fu kxeyey soli ayoengeyä nawma Karyu srak? ???
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 11:25:09 am by Lance R. Casey »

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #245 on: January 26, 2010, 11:24:56 am »
I saw that a while back and assumed he was just quoting Markus but perhaps he literally does mean let 'the people' bloom. I don't think it's shorthand though.

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #246 on: January 26, 2010, 11:30:54 am »
I saw that a while back and assumed he was just quoting Markus [..]

In all likelihood, yes. But that begs the question: did Markus say 'Ivong Na'vi! or "Let Na'vi bloom!"? (Where's the quote from? Is it public?)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #247 on: January 26, 2010, 11:37:34 am »
Quote
Markus Scully,  Galway, Ireland
I'm only 11 and haven't learnt much of the language but I am fascinated by it.'Ong Na'vi.

Hmm, so I guess he's quoting but also corrected the spelling.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #248 on: January 26, 2010, 12:09:32 pm »
I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and it took me quite some time to notice it as well, but it has been giving me pause since. Given the context, it is fairly clear that Frommer is here referring to the Na'vi language, but in all other instances this is rendered as lì'fya leNa'vi as we would expect. In this case, however, we just see the proper noun, so isn't he literally saying "let The People bloom"?
Well, a couple of things to keep in mind...

First, of course, is that "Na'vi" in English means both the language and the people, which might be similar to what happens in Na'vi.  All of the other places where we see it, it is clearly modifying something else to make it clear that the language is being spoken about, but that might not be necessary.  For example, when we speak in the Na'vi language, we say "plltxe nìNa'vi," but there is nothing in there about the language specifically.

I'm not sure I'm getting at what I'm trying to, so let me just tell you what I was thinking...  In Finnish, the word "Finland" and the word "Finnish" are the same word (as are many other countries/languages).  Now, you can almost always tell them apart by case marking and the like, but if you want to be totally clear, you can say something like "Finland's language" to make sure it's clear what you're talking about.  This is what you would do if you wanted to make a difference between, say "Finnish is beautiful" and "Finland is beautiful."

Also, it's very common for more traditional societies to refer to themselves simply as "people," and the language name often comes from that, so you get people saying they speak "people," but it's really "the language of the people."  If that makes any sense at all...

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #249 on: January 26, 2010, 12:21:28 pm »
But that begs the question: did Markus say 'Ivong Na'vi! or "Let Na'vi bloom!"? (Where's the quote from? Is it public?)

It's from the http://masempul.org/ petition page.  About two-thirds of the way down.  Do a find-on-the-page in your browser for "Galway":

Quote
Markus Scully,  GALWAY, IRELAND
I'm only 11 and haven't learnt much of the language but I am fascinated by it.'Ong Na'vi.

Quite remarkable, really, and I think it's neat that Frommer picked up on it.

  - Eri

Offline roger

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #250 on: January 26, 2010, 12:22:06 pm »
I might expect 'ivong leNa'vi. We'll have to ask Frommer if this is an exception because he's quoting.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #251 on: January 26, 2010, 12:23:16 pm »
I might expect 'ivong leNa'vi. We'll have to ask Frommer if this is an exception because he's quoting.

Well, he expanded on Markus' grammar, so it's not a straight quote.

  - Eri

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #252 on: January 26, 2010, 12:30:34 pm »
I might expect 'ivong leNa'vi. We'll have to ask Frommer if this is an exception because he's quoting.

Well, he expanded on Markus' grammar, so it's not a straight quote.

Right, which could point to the wording's being intentional. Interesting!

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #253 on: January 26, 2010, 01:20:19 pm »
Well ... I do not think, that Frommer wanted to state, that "Na'vi" also can be used as a short form instead of "lì'fya leNa'vi". Otherwise he wouldn't have used the longer term in his other sentences again and again. I hold, that he simply was touched by the enthusiastic and even creative little phrase of this 11years old guy trying to master Na'vi, so that he chose this particular one to quote it in his message (after remodeling it a bit). I think, it was just a nice phrase to him, and that he surely not wanted to make this a paradigma for the correct usage of words in Na'vi. If he not had just remodeled the phrase, but also expanded it to "lì'fya leNa'vi", it weren't the words of "our young friend Markus" any longer.


« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 01:27:00 pm by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline Utrayä Mokri

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #254 on: January 31, 2010, 06:54:03 pm »
what about this one?

if;

tìng nari -- "to see"
tìng mikyun -- "to listen"

so;

? tìng tìyawn -- "to love" ?

hence, love is a feeling that we feel and its ours to give whom we want, isnt it?


Edit: some typo errors corrected :)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 07:21:26 pm by Utrayä Mokri »
Merhaba! Hello! Mae Govannen! Kaltxì!

Oel tsati omum nìngay san Utral Aymokriyä sìk, slä oe zamup mì tìyawn plltxea Neytiriyä na san Utrayä Mokri sìk.

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #255 on: February 01, 2010, 12:43:46 am »

Frommer says:

Nga yawne lu oer.
I love you.

URL: http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Corpus#Lemondrop.com

and explains it:

Quote
    Re "love": The "indirect" way is correct.

    I've been playing around with word orders to come up with the most euphonious version. For me, it's:

    Nga yawne lu oer.

    Five syllables (sentence stress on YAWN, of course), not too long . . . sounds good, I think. The laudatory infix (as someone has dubbed it) -ie- is possible but not necessary, and I've been omitting it here. "Love" itself is positive enough that it's probably redundant, and all other things being equal, shorter is better.

    As for the sentence with tìyawn si, yes, that might mean something different. I'll have to think about it!

    OK, here's a grammatical point I haven't yet talked about explicitly:

    "Si constructions" have a special syntax. They're considered intransitive--a bit strange, perhaps, but reasonable, I think. That is, "X si" is thought of as "engage in the X-activity," an intransitive concept. What would normally be considered the object is then in the dative, along the lines of, "engage in the X-activity to/for Y."

    So rather than *Oel ngati tìyawn si," we have Oe ngaru tìyawn si.

    The literal, pidgen-English translation would be something like "I do loving to/for you."

    As I said, I'll to think about the implications of that!

URL: http://wiki.learnnavi.org/index.php?title=Canon#Verb_Phrases_as_Objects

 

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