Author Topic: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw  (Read 2780 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« on: March 17, 2010, 09:28:43 pm »
I'm currently working on a very dense grammar summary of what we currently know about Na'vi grammar.  Karyu Pawl was kind enough to take a look at it and make a few comments.  The most important new pieces of data to come out of those comments are:

"After i, u, and o, it’s just ä, not yä." (the genitive of words ending in vowels)

I had this in the document: "Third person inanimate cases, tsaw, tsal, tsat, tsar(u), gen.?, top.?"  His note, "As you can guess, tseyä and tsari, although I haven’t had occasion to use them yet."
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2010, 09:50:43 pm »
Nice!  Are we assuming that all pronouns end in "-eyä"?
Txantsan!  Kxawm law awngaru fwa *aylì'u tuptstxoä zene ’ivi’a fa "-eyä" srak?

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Offline okrìsti

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2010, 09:54:22 pm »
Good to know.
Are there any notes about the case endings like -ti/-t; depending on the following word or taken by personal preferences?
What about pronouns like “whose”, *pesuyä or *tuyäpe edit or even (following Keyls assumption) *peseyä or *teyäpe?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 01:21:47 am by okrìsti »
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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2010, 03:42:58 am »

Quote
"After i, u, and o, it’s just ä, not yä." (the genitive of words ending in vowels)

As we know from examples, the other cases do not use their "non-vowel-form" (-ìl, -ur, -it) after i, u and o. So it's just a "genitive speciality". Really a weird case in Na'vi!

By the way: I'm looking forward to see your concise grammar published!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 03:46:26 am by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2010, 05:09:27 am »
I had this in the document: "Third person inanimate cases, tsaw, tsal, tsat, tsar(u), gen.?, top.?"  His note, "As you can guess, tseyä and tsari, although I haven’t had occasion to use them yet."
So where does this leave the stand-alone tsa hinted at here? Is it interchangeable with tsaw? Also, do we know whether *mesa(w), *pxesa(w) and derivatives thereof are kosher?

// Lance R. Casey

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2010, 05:35:45 am »
Seems like tsa always gets something following it, with a -w if nothing else.  I don't see why mesaw/etc wouldn't be allowed.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2010, 07:43:00 am »
Are there any notes about the case endings like -ti/-t; depending on the following word or taken by personal preferences?

In the document I say that the choice between the long and short endings in the dative and patientive (i.e. -ru vs. -r and -ti vs -t) "appears to be largely a matter of style and euphony."  He made no comment on that statement.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2010, 07:52:49 am »
And what about the rules which follows what?
Usually the approach was -l -r(u) -t(i) after vowels and -ìl -ur(u) -it after consonants ... now we have forms like
Kem(ì)ri a ngaru prrte' ke lu, Tsakem rä’ä sivi aylaheru.
where Frommer himself states kemri is a possible option... is that only possible after nasals?

Offline roger

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2010, 08:00:11 am »
We also have tsawl and tsawt, so the question is whether *tsa exists as an indep. PN.

The new genitive rule appears to occur in the film, with Omatikayoä. I'm going by ear here, and wasn't able to make much sense of it before now.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 08:29:09 am by roger »

Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 10:13:26 am »
The way I see it is that the POSS ending is universally , but when it follows another lax vowel, you insert a [j] to ease pronunciation. Then, what we see here is not really an exception, but the influence of a phonotactic rule.

Of course, as soon as someone points out a single occurrence where there are two lax vowels side by side in a word, my whole theory goes down the drain. :D

(I'm aware that tenseness and laxness are undefined with respect to Na’vi, but [u], [o], and [i] would be considered tense in English, just as [ɪ], [æ], and [ɛ] would be lax. I think [a] could go either way, so I just assumed it would be lax too.)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 10:42:44 am by tsrräfkxätu »
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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 10:45:58 am »

Quote
where there are two lax vowels side by side in a word

e. g.
mu [mu.ˈi.æ] (Adj) proper, fair, right, justified.
n [ni.ˈæ] (Vtr) grab.

and here are all three of them:

äie [æ.ˈi.ɛ] (N) vision (spiritual sense).


Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 10:53:13 am »

Quote
where there are two lax vowels side by side in a word

e. g.
mu [mu.ˈi.æ] (Adj) proper, fair, right, justified.
n [ni.ˈæ] (Vtr) grab.

and here are all three of them:

äie [æ.ˈi.ɛ] (N) vision (spiritual sense).



Not good, because [i] isn't lax. :D
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Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 11:22:44 am »

Oh, sorry, my bad. Well then your rule seems to be hard to beat, maybe with:

Katot taftxu oel nìean nìrim (Weaving Song)


Offline roger

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2010, 11:25:12 am »
I just figured it was -ä after high & back vowels (which would cover diphthongs and rr, ll as well) and -yä elsewhere.

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2010, 12:51:30 pm »
Seems like tsa always gets something following it, with a -w if nothing else.  I don't see why mesaw/etc wouldn't be allowed.

Wait, i'm confused.  I thought tsaw was the short form of tsa'u--isn't tsa its own thing?
eo Eywa oe 'ia

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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2010, 01:01:36 pm »
We've never actually seen "tsa" on it's own from a canon source.  Only as a prefix, or with case endings.  Not sure on tsaw vs tsa'u.
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Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2010, 01:04:21 pm »
Have we seen tsaw somewhere?  I can't recall.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline roger

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 06:13:03 pm »
I thought tsaw was the short form of tsa'u--isn't tsa its own thing?

Yes, that's right. Tsa just isn't attested without a suffix. Before Wm's addition, we had this:

Quote from: Frommer
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 06:20:58 pm by roger »

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 06:38:05 pm »
I thought tsaw was the short form of tsa'u--isn't tsa its own thing?

Yes, that's right. Tsa just isn't attested without a suffix. Before Wm's addition, we had this:

Quote from: Frommer
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.


Okay, that makes sense.  Irayo, ma tsmukan.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline tsrräfkxätu

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Re: Genitive case refinement; declension of tsaw
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2010, 07:13:36 pm »
Quote from: Frommer
"Tsaw" is a development ... of tsa'u. The two are synonymous, and both are in use. So you have pairs like tsa'uri/tsawri, tsa'ut/tsawt, etc.

Since it has been established that diphthong-final words get case endings like consonant-final ones (i.e one that starts with a vowel), I don't understand why these aren't tsawit and tsawìri...
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