Author Topic: GRID tidbits  (Read 1747 times)

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Offline Lance R. Casey

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GRID tidbits
« on: September 08, 2010, 09:46:37 am »
From Frommer's speech at GRID 2010:

Kxetse sì mikyun kop plltxe: wm.annis's idiom made the cut!
tìftxavang: "passion"

I could also mention a minor detail from the preceding meeting which he spoke of (hey, indirect mention!), namely that naer is pluralizable ("beverages"), whereas syuve is not. Hardly surprising, but anyway.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:58:38 am by Payoang »

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Taronyu

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 11:01:51 am »
Good catches. Added to the dict.

I do like that idiom...

What other collective nouns do we have? I haven't been noting them in my dictionary, but I really ought to.

Offline Muzer

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 11:40:03 am »
All I can think of for possible collective nouns offhand is "Na'vi" (confirmed), "olo'" (would make sense, if you CAN use it to refer to every individual in a clan), "pongu" and its compounds (like olo', if it can be used to address each individual, it will be collective).
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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2010, 03:54:57 pm »
All I can think of for possible collective nouns offhand is "Na'vi" (confirmed), "olo'" (would make sense, if you CAN use it to refer to every individual in a clan), "pongu" and its compounds (like olo', if it can be used to address each individual, it will be collective).

I would expect all the words derived from pongu also are collective; and if syuve is, then tsngan, vey, fkxen, and/or tsyosyu all might be as well.
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Offline Kayrìlien

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 12:20:40 pm »
Good catches. Added to the dict.

I do like that idiom...

What other collective nouns do we have? I haven't been noting them in my dictionary, but I really ought to.

By collective nouns, do you also mean groups of people that would be addressed with the -ya vocative? Or just things like "bread" and "money" in English that don't have plural forms. It might be nice to note both types of words.

Or actually...would Na'vi even treat them differently at all? Say you're speaking poetically and directly addressing syuve as though you're talking to it. Since "food" is a collective term, would we translate "You are delicious, O food!" as "Nga lu ftxìlor, ma syuve!" or "Nga lu ftxìlor, syuveya!" ?

I know it's sort of a silly technicality, but this might be something to think about.

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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2010, 12:30:18 pm »
What you're describing ma kayrìlien is the difference between collective nouns and uncountable nouns (also known as mass nouns).

If a noun has no plural form then it is uncountable but not necessarily collective, it would only be collective if it refers to a group of other nouns. Bread and bread are uncountable but not collective; group, herd, clan etc. are collective nouns but are countable.

Assuming the rules are exactly as they have been explained and there is no inaccuracy in that explanation, syuve etc. which do not take the plural would not take -ya and would instead have to take ma.
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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 04:07:56 pm »
I thought of another one:  If fmawn is used like "news" in English, then it's uncountable also.
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Offline Nyx

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 05:44:07 pm »
I thought of another one:  If fmawn is used like "news" in English, then it's uncountable also.
If it works like it does in English, yeah, but there are languages where "news" is countable.

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 09:09:37 pm »
I thought of another one:  If fmawn is used like "news" in English, then it's uncountable also.
If it works like it does in English, yeah, but there are languages where "news" is countable.

Personally, i hope it is countable.  And conversely, i'd like some not-countable things in Na'vi that would make us English-speakers scratch our heads.  I love a good challenge—stretches the brain =)
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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2010, 10:33:25 pm »

Here is a somewhat tricky one:

  moss    mosses 


  prrwll    ayfneprrwill 

Moss in and of itself is al collective noun, but when made plural in English it carries the meaning "different KINDS of moss".

Milk is the same.

  Example: "Three milks were available and fortunately I was allergic to only one."

Cheese, of course, follows.

  Example: "Let's have a few cheeses for the dessert course."

  - water(s) Ambiguous. "3 waters" could mean 3 types or 3 glasses of water.
  - chocolate(s) Ambiguous. "3 chocolates" could mean 3 types or 3 pieces.
  - ice cream(s) Can suffer the same ambiguity of chocolate and water.


Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2010, 11:14:37 pm »
Tewti, ma Prrton!  Frakrr leiu ngaru sìlronsema aysäfpìl apxay fìtxan.

And you're right, English is full of these theoretically uncountable words that are sometimes, erm, countable. 

There are lots of words like people, fish, grass... that in plural form mean "different kinds of...".


And then, of course, there are words that are sometimes uncountable, but the countable forms are sort of a different shade of meaning:

"All life is sacred" vs. "Many lives were lost"

"Death is the mind-killer" vs. "There were three deaths in the battle"

Or, one i really like:

"Love is all you need" vs. "He had two great loves in his life"

(Maybe this is something that mostly happens to "abstracts" in English?)


So, long post made a lot shorter:  I'd love to get some feedback on this from Karyu Pawl =)
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Offline Muzer

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2010, 09:52:15 am »

Here is a somewhat tricky one:

  moss    mosses 


  prrwll    ayfneprrwill 

Moss in and of itself is al collective noun, but when made plural in English it carries the meaning "different KINDS of moss".


Is that Frommerian, or just deduction?
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Offline Prrton

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Re: GRID tidbits
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2010, 12:36:05 pm »

Here is a somewhat tricky one:

  moss    mosses 


  prrwll    ayfneprrwill 

Moss in and of itself is al collective noun, but when made plural in English it carries the meaning "different KINDS of moss".


Is that Frommerian, or just deduction?

Neither, but he and I have discussed moss before (kin of). This is Frommerian:

  Oeru ke tsun livam ke'u lor to Eywa'evengä na'rìng a lew säpoli fa prrwll,
  kxawm mungwrr fìkifkey a lew säpìyi fa fpom sì lì'fya leNa'vi.

The 'moss' is in the singular (not «frrwll»).

This would be a good example. We should ask him what «frrwll» means, if anything.

My translation above (à la 'translate the meaning, not the words') shows what the ENGLISH means translated into Na'vi, but I didn't intend to preclude the existence of «frrwll» as a valid form in Na'vi.


 

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