Author Topic: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä  (Read 7161 times)

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Offline Prrton

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2010, 08:56:24 pm »
Stages:

Ta'leng = skin. (This is if we want to stick to the literal meaning of "flesh" of animal origin.) ---> Vey = raw meat. (The stuff that I presume Neytiri gave Seze.) ---> Tsngan = "cooked" meat. (Sìlpey oel futa 'em ayngeyä vey Na'vi. ;))

Scinn & flǣsc are both distinct words (concepts) in Old English and are distinct meanings in all the languages I know. Piel/carne 皮膚or肌/肉... If anything, I'd guess that ta'leng physically covers tsngan on both living and deceased ioang/swirä and the concept of vey most strongly comes into play with food (and not the other way around). Whether that's cooked or not is likely to depend on the chef, circumstances, and pefneioangta tsavey zola'u.  ;) (I wonder what a good Pandoran hamachi tastes like...?)

We received the word tsngan before vey, but evolutionarily speaking, I know that before the «fìtxon» questions for the recent celebration of Passover, there were no terms for tsyosyu or fkxen so it makes logical sense that vey came along as a function of "fleshing out" (Ngaytxoa. I couldn't resist.) that paradigm of natural substances associated with eating/food.

In the Bible and works of poetry, the cliché "in the flesh" etc., "The Flesh" represents the physical body (of humans) metaphorically, as opposed to the sense of spirit/soul. But that is a stronger original reference to the muscle/meat than the skin (which also gets included along with bone, hair, etc... latsu wotx tokxä luke vitra.)

I doubt the Na'vi are as cultured as the French about taking it all on and clarifying it on an animal by animal basis.  ;)

Offline roger

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2010, 05:09:57 am »
vey is a recent coinage by Paul and is glossed by him as "food of animal origin; flesh". tsngan is an older word (we don't know how old) and is glossed simply as "meat". Now, if I were to take that literally, I'd conclude that vey is any animal product used as food, such as tendon, tripe, or tongue, whereas tsngan is limited to muscle used for food and excludes tendon or tripe. (Is tongue "meat"?) But I don't know if that's Paul's intent. As for "flesh", the semicolon means that this is a second definition, not a synonym. So presumably vey also has non-food uses, the solid physical material of the body, whereas tsngan may be limited to steaks and ribs. For many people, fish is not "meat", though I'm not sure it counts as an "animal" product for them either. So perhaps teylu is vey but not tsngan.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 05:12:03 am by roger »

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2010, 10:01:46 am »
As for "flesh", the semicolon means that this is a second definition, not a synonym.

Ooo, neat, is this the first word we have that has multiple uses? It's about time IMO, I mean, I love how Na'vi is so logical but I have always been surprised by the lack of multiple use words. Good info.

Edit: Wait, what semicolon? Do you mean the coma?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 10:20:19 am by Ftiafpi »

Offline Prrton

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2010, 12:47:31 pm »
vey is a recent coinage by Paul and is glossed by him as "food of animal origin; flesh". tsngan is an older word (we don't know how old) and is glossed simply as "meat". Now, if I were to take that literally, I'd conclude that vey is any animal product used as food, such as tendon, tripe, or tongue, whereas tsngan is limited to muscle used for food and excludes tendon or tripe. (Is tongue "meat"?) But I don't know if that's Paul's intent. As for "flesh", the semicolon means that this is a second definition, not a synonym. So presumably vey also has non-food uses, the solid physical material of the body, whereas tsngan may be limited to steaks and ribs. For many people, fish is not "meat", though I'm not sure it counts as an "animal" product for them either. So perhaps teylu is vey but not tsngan.

Agreed that the body of payoang may not contain tsngan and it may or may not fall under vey. But, a whale-like thing could also be a payoang based on what I am guessing about the derivation. There might be a whole lot of tsngan/vey going on there...?? I would (currently) think that teylu seems it could be vey more easily than tsngan. BUT, it could be neither and fall under a ketenga category at the vey level that would have it as a peer to something like 'Rrtan poi, even though it derives from a very different kind of organism.

Overall, I think for us to really understand how things might map out for the Na'vi on Pandora, we'll need another movie, or some interstitial revelations from Kämeron on the Na'vi's epicurism. I'm no "specialist" on Pandoran flora and fauna, but it seems that they may have an even WUZZIER line for the plant/animal distinction than we do based on how I imagine a syeptute, etc. It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me that something like that might produce *tsngan lefkxen.

Some particularly interesting wuzzy examples from awngeyä kifkey:

  - Nepenthes
  - Spirobranchus giganteus
  - Elysia chlorotica

I'm also a bit curious about that second syllable of syuve. Is it related to ve(y) (implying that the Na'vi strongly identify or may have in the past identified as carnivores) or perhaps to the same concept that brings "order" to the numbers in 'awve, meve, etc... Of course, syulang may be hinting in a different (more vegetarian) direction historically... or it may just be coincidental. "Yummy" to think about one way or the other.

PS: This guy, is the most *prodigious* carnivore left in the primate realm le'Rrta. That's quite a feat at only 15cm or so in stature. San rìkìri ke kin, irayo sìk.

Offline roger

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2010, 08:46:42 pm »
Ooo, neat, is this the first word we have that has multiple uses? It's about time IMO, I mean, I love how Na'vi is so logical but I have always been surprised by the lack of multiple use words. Good info.

Edit: Wait, what semicolon? Do you mean the coma?

No, there are others. Mail me to post them if I forget this evening.

No, semicolon: animal food [semicolon] flesh.

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2010, 09:47:42 pm »
Ooo, neat, is this the first word we have that has multiple uses? It's about time IMO, I mean, I love how Na'vi is so logical but I have always been surprised by the lack of multiple use words. Good info.

Edit: Wait, what semicolon? Do you mean the coma?

No, there are others. Mail me to post them if I forget this evening.

No, semicolon: animal food [semicolon] flesh.

huh, in William's OP he writes a coma.

Offline okrìsti

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2010, 10:29:09 pm »
I happened with reformatting, before it was enlisted with ; and I noted it down this way. :)
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2010, 10:53:28 pm »
vey is a recent coinage by Paul and is glossed by him as "food of animal origin; flesh". tsngan is an older word (we don't know how old) and is glossed simply as "meat". Now, if I were to take that literally, I'd conclude that vey is any animal product used as food, such as tendon, tripe, or tongue, whereas tsngan is limited to muscle used for food and excludes tendon or tripe. (Is tongue "meat"?) But I don't know if that's Paul's intent. As for "flesh", the semicolon means that this is a second definition, not a synonym. So presumably vey also has non-food uses, the solid physical material of the body, whereas tsngan may be limited to steaks and ribs. For many people, fish is not "meat", though I'm not sure it counts as an "animal" product for them either. So perhaps teylu is vey but not tsngan.

Agreed that the body of payoang may not contain tsngan and it may or may not fall under vey. But, a whale-like thing could also be a payoang based on what I am guessing about the derivation. There might be a whole lot of tsngan/vey going on there...?? I would (currently) think that teylu seems it could be vey more easily than tsngan. BUT, it could be neither and fall under a ketenga category at the vey level that would have it as a peer to something like 'Rrtan poi, even though it derives from a very different kind of organism.

Whaat makes this more nebulous is that we (in English) play fast and loose with terms that could be generically described as 'animal tissue used for food'. The terms 'meat' and 'flesh' can be freely interchanged even in modern usage, but the word 'flesh' has a less 'culinary' connotation associated with it. To illustrate further, some would say flesh is reserved for muscle tissue, and the tissues closely associated with it, that make up the 'carcass' of a bird or mammal. The internal organs are feferred to collectively by terms of varying strength: 'entrails', 'viscera', or more culinarily, 'offal' or 'variety meats'. Yet, this is all grouped as 'fhesh' if you are describing a carnivore or 'flesh eater'. To them 'flesh' is any soft tissue. And for food group purposes, we can call any and all of this 'meat'.

As far as payoang goes, fish is generically classified as meat, even though we refer to fhsh flesh or muscle tissue as 'fish'. If the Na`vi have a distinction between they vey of land animals and fish, we do not yet know about it. Also keepp in mind that whales are marine mammals, and much more like a cow than an fish. So generally, the same sort of terminology is used to describe their body as you would use for a cow.

So, if I am reading this right, vey might describe the leg of a yerik that has been cut off and is intended to be used for food. At this point, it is still anatomically complete, except for maybe the skin. But once it has been further processed into pieces for eating (and presumably had any gristly parts like tendons removed), it is then tsngan But vey is not intended to refer to animal food products that did not come from inside an animal's body (necessitating the animal's death to recover it), such as eggs, milk, etc.

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Offline Prrton

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2010, 11:17:50 pm »
I happened with reformatting, before it was enlisted with ; and I noted it down this way. :)

Ma smuk!

I'm completely SURE that >>> I <<< and I alone am the party who is guilty of deleting the semicolon. I never knew that it carried such hefty weight and a critical role in the underpinnings of our fair language!

I'll be more careful in the future.

It likely was deleted in the process of formatting everything in tables so that it would line up better.

I will go fix it PXISWAWAY!

Oeru txoa livu!

Offline okrìsti

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2010, 11:33:14 pm »
Oe fpeiyìl futa frapo tsun tìkxey sivi slä tsenge fìtsengena leiu fte awngal ’awsiteng rivun tsaykeyeyit. Tsaw fìfya leiu sìltsan. :)
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Offline Prrton

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2010, 12:01:15 am »
Oe fpeiyìl futa frapo tsun tìkxey sivi slä tsenge fìtsengena leiu fte awngal ’awsiteng rivun tsaykeyeyit. Tsaw fìfya leiu sìltsan. :)

Oel fpìl futa zene livu tsafya fpeiìl taluna lu tìketeng kip tsamefaypam;)

Offline roger

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2010, 12:36:28 am »
Okay, here are the defs. with semicolons in them. There appear to be three uses: marking polysemy, separating differing parts of speech, and separating glosses from explanations.

txan      great (quantity); much         ADJ
skxakep   probable; probably         ADJ, ADV
keftxo   unhappy, upset; How sad!      ADJ, CONV
san      saying; quote            ADV
rawke      alarm cry; call to defense      CONV
fpom      well-being; peace; happiness      N
fya'o      path, way; manner         N
Tawtute   Sky Person; human         N
tì'awpo   individuality (neg.); selfishness   N
uniltìrantokx   avatar; dreamwalker body   N
ma      particle for direct address; oh      PART
frato      than all; superlative marker      PIV
to      than; comparative marker; comparatively   PIV
fko      one (PN); unspecified agent      PRO
tam      suffice, "do"; OK             V, CONV
vey      food of animal origin; flesh       N

Offline okrìsti

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2010, 01:13:24 am »
I would add:
rusey with alive, living; living thing ADJ, N
wrrpa outside N,ADV
and probably those combinations of prefix and tseng(e), trr, krr, etc.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 09:30:42 pm by okrìsti »
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Offline roger

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2010, 01:22:23 am »
There's also

sutx     track, follow, lock up

without a semicolon. It seems to not be completely consistent.

Offline R One

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2010, 03:40:57 pm »
Kaltxì,

The message from Paul (both audio and text) seems to have disappeared from http://masempul.org/blog/.

Did I miss something ?

/R One

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2010, 03:53:13 pm »
Kaltxì,

The message from Paul (both audio and text) seems to have disappeared from http://masempul.org/blog/.

Did I miss something ?

/R One

Nope. Still there. Just a lot further down the list now.  ;)

  Trr ’Rrtayä

That was a while back.

Offline R One

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Re: Mipa 'Upxare leMokri Frapofpi ta K. Pawl mì Srr 'Rrtayä
« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2010, 04:42:30 pm »
Nope. Still there. Just a lot further down the list now.  ;)

  Trr ’Rrtayä

That was a while back.
I found it. Sorry for the trouble... Irayo !

/R One

 

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