Author Topic: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs  (Read 5748 times)

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Offline Blue Elf

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How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« on: August 12, 2013, 02:01:41 pm »
Recently I was solving question, how to create opposite or negative adjectives and adverbs (in this thread). As it seemed that we do not have safe way how to do it, I asked our biggest authority and today I received reply. Paul promised to release these information also on Naviteri, but for those impatient here's short excerpt

Quote from: Paul
NEGATIVE ADJECTIVES
Here are some pairs we already know about:
teng 'same, equal'keteng 'different'
eyawr 'correct'keyawr 'incorrect'
tsuktswa' 'forgettable'ketsuktswa' 'unforgettable'
lesar 'useful'kelsar 'useless'
lefpomtokx 'healthy'kelfpomtokx 'unhealthy'
lekin 'necessary'kelkin 'unnecessary'
letsunslu 'possible'keltsun 'impossible'
So from these examples we can derive a rule:

To form the negative of an adjective, use the negative prefix ke-. Note, however, that for le- adjectives, *kele... > kel...  There are also some idiosyncrasies: for example, keltsunslu is usually reduced to simply keltsun. Also, *keeyawr > keyawr by the general rule that two identical vowels coalesce into one.

This is a productive process when there aren't separate lexical items in the dictionary like the ones you pointed out: tsawl ~ hì'i, koak ~ 'ewan, etc. So there's no *ketsawl, *kehì'i, *kekoak, *ke'ewan, just as in English we don't have *unyoung, *unold, *unbig, *unsmall.
Now I found unsolved problem - how to form "impatient"? By rule: ke + lemweypey > *kelmweypey. Question sent back to Paul.

Quote from: Paul
NEGATIVE ADVERBS
here too, a couple of dictionary entires point the way to the rule:
nìkelkin 'unnecessarily'
nìktungzup 'carefully, firmly'

In the first example, - is added to a negative adjective to form a negative adverb.

In the second, - is added to a negative verb: + (ke + tungzup). That is, "in a way that doesn't drop" or (in fractured English) undroppingly. :-)

So negative adverbs generally start with + ke, since they're usually built up from - along with a negative adjective or verb. But contractions occur. For example, + ke usually becomes nìk-, as in nìktungzup.

So what would "impatiently" be? Well, remember that maweypey is a verb meaning "be patient." "Be impatient" is simply ke maweypey.

The adverb "patiently" is derived this way: + maweypey = nìmaweypey > nìmweypey. (The unstressed a has dropped.)

In the same way, the adverb "impatiently" is derived as follows: + ke + maweypey = nìkemaweypey > nìkemweypey. (Again, the unstressed a has dropped, which means the e of ke cannot drop.)

And that all for now, ma eylan...
See update here: http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/how-to-form-negativeopposite-adjectivesadverbs/15/
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:52:28 pm by Blue Elf »
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 02:12:14 pm »
So, we can use ke- for adjectives except some exceptions?
Also nì- + ke- / nìk- / nìke-?

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Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 02:13:39 pm »
kekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekek ekekekekekekekekekekekekekekekeTXANTSAN FÌ'U LU!
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 02:18:53 pm »
Txantsana tìpawm sì tì'eyng akosman. :D

Irayo, ma tsmukan (sì Pawl, nìfrakrr.) :)
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 02:33:44 pm »
So, we can use ke- for adjectives except some exceptions?
Also nì- + ke- / nìk- / nìke-?
Yes. If negative/opposite adjective already exists in dictionary, usage of ke- is forbidden. Otherwise you are free to use it.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 02:35:53 pm »
Great!
And adverbs too? :-\

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Offline Plumps

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 03:29:32 pm »
Good update!  :D

But I still think that this is only partly productive … there are still a few adjectives that we don’t have the opposite word of. So I would be very careful to build this simply with ke- because in the future development there could be a new word shape for the opposite word.  :-\

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 04:11:18 pm »
Productive, except when it's not. ;-)  Na'vi is becoming more and more like a natural language.

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2013, 02:09:22 am »
Good update!  :D

But I still think that this is only partly productive … there are still a few adjectives that we don’t have the opposite word of. So I would be very careful to build this simply with ke- because in the future development there could be a new word shape for the opposite word.  :-\

question is whether such missing opposites will be created, when we have this new way.... But of course if they will, former opposites created using ke- must be forgotten  ;D
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2013, 02:41:24 am »
Just occurred to me that now "not straight" is keyey.  I'm hoping context will make it clear from "mistakes". ;)

Na'vi is becoming more like a natural language everyday. ;D
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2013, 02:59:01 am »
Just occurred to me that now "not straight" is keyey.  I'm hoping context will make it clear from "mistakes". ;)

Na'vi is becoming more like a natural language everyday. ;D
There's no problem, if it is used as attribute, as it gets -a- affix. Can be problem when used in "lu" sentence. This is probably candidate for its own opposite listed in dictionary.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2013, 10:14:06 am »
Just occurred to me that now "not straight" is keyey.  I'm hoping context will make it clear from "mistakes". ;)

Na'vi is becoming more like a natural language everyday. ;D
There's no problem, if it is used as attribute, as it gets -a- affix. Can be problem when used in "lu" sentence. This is probably candidate for its own opposite listed in dictionary.

Oh, oh, oh! This would be awesome for a Na'vi proverb referring to something as not straight being a mistake. Forgive the problematic connotations in English but I for one think that having homonyms like this can add a lot of fun.

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2013, 04:31:18 pm »
But they would not be homonyms
;)

One is pronounced keyey the other one keyey. Once again a difference in pronunciation :)

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2013, 05:11:56 pm »
Thanks to the amazing Karyu Pawl!

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2013, 01:27:57 pm »
But they would not be homonyms
;)

One is pronounced keyey the other one keyey. Once again a difference in pronunciation :)

You're right! Txantsan! I think we'll have another example of words sharing the same syllables but having different stresses like tute.

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2013, 02:51:53 pm »
And it's time for update. *Kele- > kel- rule was precised:

Quote from: oe
how to create "impatient"?
we have le+maweypey > lemweypey. According rules you gave me I should just add ke-, and if le- is present, it changes to kel-.
So, ke+lemweypey > *kelmweypey, what breaks rules for syllable creation.
And here's reply:
Quote from: Paul
Yes, you're right. That is an additional little detail to consider.
The same problem occurs in "impatiently." As I mentioned yesterday, I derived that word like this:
In the same way, the adverb "impatiently" is derived as follows: nì + ke + maweypey = nìkemaweypey > nìkemweypey. (Again, the unstressed a has dropped, which means the e of ke cannot drop.)

The question here is what happens to the underlying form *nìkemaweypey. There are two unstressed vowels that are eligible for dropping:

*nìkemaweypey

I feel pretty certain that as the language evolved, one or the other of these vowels would drop. But which one?

If the e drops, we get nìkmaweypey.

If the a drops, we get nìkemweypey.

Either of these developments could be justified. I went with the second form, which sounds more natural to me. So it's the a of mawey that dropped.

The situation with the adjective form is similar.

The underlying form is *kelemaweypey. Again, the two unstressed vowels eligible for dropping are:

*kelemaweypey

If the e drops, we get kelmaweypey.

If the a drops, we get kelemweypey.

Again, I went with the second form. This has the advantage of giving us the nice pairs lemweypey/kelemweypey.

So a more accurate form of the "kele-" rule is:

*kele- > kel-, unless it would create an impermissible consonant cluster, in which case it remains kele-
.
So, enjoy improved rule and use it carefully!
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2013, 05:49:41 pm »
Oh, oh, oh! This would be awesome for a Na'vi proverb referring to something as not straight being a mistake. Forgive the problematic connotations in English but I for one think that having homonyms like this can add a lot of fun.
Nari si fìtsenge. ;)

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2013, 09:35:10 pm »
Txantsan! This is all really useful! So, I now understand that an unbound ke is for verbs only. The enclitic form is for adjectives and adverbs. And the existence of kele- or kel- answers a long-standing question I have had, which is why some words, like 'impossible', is keltsun and not *ketsun.

This is also consistent in behavior with another discussion going on http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocab-phrases/short-forms/ , where the combination of tsa- and an adposition is being discussed. Even though the two subjects are not related, we see a lot of interesting things about the way affixes combine with words. This is apparently, an amportant characteristic of the Na'vi language. (Now, if I can just get this stuff to sink into my thick head!)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 09:41:27 pm by `Eylan Ayfalulukanä »

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: How to form negative/opposite adjectives/adverbs
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2013, 04:02:39 pm »
Oh, oh, oh! This would be awesome for a Na'vi proverb referring to something as not straight being a mistake. Forgive the problematic connotations in English but I for one think that having homonyms like this can add a lot of fun.
Nari si fìtsenge. ;)

Very nice, I like the ideas people came up with.

 

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