Author Topic: "I have something to say."  (Read 1808 times)

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Offline wm.annis

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"I have something to say."
« on: January 05, 2012, 06:31:00 pm »
I asked K. Pawl about this matter due to another discussion.  His reply,

Quote from: Pawl
Yup. That's what Jake was supposed to say.

...

In this case, I don't see a problem with a "double dative." The poster who said these are most likely to occur where one dative is a possessive is probably right; I can't think of another straightforward kind of example. But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

(1) Lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
(2) Lu frapor aylì'u oeru.

are not the same.

"Fpi" isn't quite the same thing: it's used more in cases of "for the sake of, for the benefit of." So:

Tsakem soli oe fpi nga. 'I did it for you.' -- i.e., for your benefit.

Cf.:

Tsakem soli oe ngaru. 'I did it to you.'

Or:

(3) Stxelit fpole' oel ngaru. 'I sent the gift to you.'
(4) Stxelit fpole' oel ngafpi. 'I sent the gift for you.' -- i.e. I sent it to someone else for your sake. (Perhaps you were sick and not able to get out, so I sent it on your behalf.)
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 06:44:42 pm »
Thank you so much for asking this and then posting it!  :D
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2012, 08:24:26 pm »
Fì'u lu eltur tìtxen si sì srung seri. - Irayo!

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 09:24:16 pm »
Quote from: Pawl
Yup. That's what Jake was supposed to say.
But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

(1) Lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
(2) Lu frapor aylì'u oeru.

are not the same.

Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 10:06:59 pm »
those preceeding me I second.

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2012, 02:02:05 am »
Quote from: Pawl
Yup. That's what Jake was supposed to say.
But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

(1) Lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
(2) Lu frapor aylì'u oeru.

are not the same.

Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
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Offline Tanri

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2012, 03:08:22 am »
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì’u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2012, 06:19:26 am »
There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X)

Where did you get it? I don't remember.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 06:20:25 am »
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì’u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.

Quote from: Frommer
ngaru lu fpom srak?
Quote from: Frommer
...do you have wellbeing?...

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 06:26:27 am »
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì’u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.

Quote from: Frommer
ngaru lu fpom srak?
Quote from: Frommer
...do you have wellbeing?...

+1 ;) Also: Pori awngaru lu tìkin a nume nì'ul :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Ikran Ahiyìk

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 07:28:58 am »
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì’u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.

Quote from: Frommer
ngaru lu fpom srak?
Quote from: Frommer
...do you have wellbeing?...

+1 ;) Also: Pori awngaru lu tìkin a nume nì'ul :)

Should we ask again about the a? Lu oeru aylì'u (a) frapor.. as you said and I think it makes a lot of sense.

For a free word order language the rule seems strange, and we need more clarification..

AFAIK Lu X-ru Y = X have Y and all the three can be in any position.

Don't know anything about the another dative... there should be some rules for us to know which one have the thing and which one is to be given something.
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Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2012, 07:54:22 am »
Regarding the position of lu in possessive constructions, Frommer said this (emphasis mine):

Quote from: K. Pawl
But contrary to the general principle of flexible word order, "have" constructions usually begin with the verb.
As we have seen, it's not an inviolable rule, but rather, as a certain Captain would say, more of a guideline. ;)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2012, 11:07:43 am »
is it not clear enough that Frommer said:

Quote
But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

edit: also the thing that Lance R. Casey just said.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 11:17:47 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2012, 11:44:17 pm »
Sran word order can make a difference.  However that doesn't really explain this:

what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Who has words for who?

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2012, 11:49:59 pm »
it means an ambiguity solved by context. unless otherwise noted by pawl.

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2012, 01:46:23 pm »
I'd second what Tirea Aean said where I'm having trouble picturing a situation where confusion wouldn't be eliminated by context. Also, couldn't fwa also eliminate confusion if someone wanted to be perfectly clear?

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2012, 01:53:47 pm »
fwa? how so?


using "a" has been raised but even that can be confusing in some cases.

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2012, 03:12:20 pm »
fwa? how so?


using "a" has been raised but even that can be confusing in some cases.

Could one not say: "Oeru lu fwa lu aylì'u frapor"?

Ah, I see that Ikran Ahiyìk mentioned a as well. I missed that before.

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2012, 04:10:54 pm »
what you've said is:


I have this: everyone has words.

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Offline Ikran Ahiyìk

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Re: "I have something to say."
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 08:54:57 pm »
I have something to say.
~ I have something which is for everyone.

Lu oeru aylì'u a frapor pum livu.

I may think of something like this, so now the thing underlined can be in any order within the line..



I've thought about this before, but I think Kemaweyan introduce it to us first.. ;)
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