"I have something to say."

Started by wm.annis, January 05, 2012, 06:31:00 PM

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wm.annis

I asked K. Pawl about this matter due to another discussion.  His reply,

Quote from: PawlYup. That's what Jake was supposed to say.

...

In this case, I don't see a problem with a "double dative." The poster who said these are most likely to occur where one dative is a possessive is probably right; I can't think of another straightforward kind of example. But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

(1) Lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
(2) Lu frapor aylì'u oeru.

are not the same.

"Fpi" isn't quite the same thing: it's used more in cases of "for the sake of, for the benefit of." So:

Tsakem soli oe fpi nga. 'I did it for you.' -- i.e., for your benefit.

Cf.:

Tsakem soli oe ngaru. 'I did it to you.'

Or:

(3) Stxelit fpole' oel ngaru. 'I sent the gift to you.'
(4) Stxelit fpole' oel ngafpi. 'I sent the gift for you.' -- i.e. I sent it to someone else for your sake. (Perhaps you were sick and not able to get out, so I sent it on your behalf.)

Eltu Lefngap Makto

Thank you so much for asking this and then posting it!  :D
'Ivong, Na'vi!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Fì'u lu eltur tìtxen si sì srung seri. - Irayo!

Yawey ngahu!
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Kemaweyan

Quote from: wm.annis on January 05, 2012, 06:31:00 PM
Quote from: PawlYup. That's what Jake was supposed to say.
But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

(1) Lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
(2) Lu frapor aylì'u oeru.

are not the same.

Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tirea Aean


Blue Elf

Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 05, 2012, 09:24:16 PM
Quote from: wm.annis on January 05, 2012, 06:31:00 PM
Quote from: PawlYup. That's what Jake was supposed to say.
But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

(1) Lu oeru aylì'u frapor.
(2) Lu frapor aylì'u oeru.

are not the same.

Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tanri

Quote from: Blue Elf on January 06, 2012, 02:02:05 AM
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì'u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tanri on January 06, 2012, 03:08:22 AM
There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X)

Where did you get it? I don't remember.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Tanri on January 06, 2012, 03:08:22 AM
Quote from: Blue Elf on January 06, 2012, 02:02:05 AM
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì'u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.

Quote from: Frommerngaru lu fpom srak?
Quote from: Frommer...do you have wellbeing?...

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tirea Aean on January 06, 2012, 06:20:25 AM
Quote from: Tanri on January 06, 2012, 03:08:22 AM
Quote from: Blue Elf on January 06, 2012, 02:02:05 AM
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì'u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.

Quote from: Frommerngaru lu fpom srak?
Quote from: Frommer...do you have wellbeing?...

+1 ;) Also: Pori awngaru lu tìkin a nume nì'ul :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Ikran Ahiyìk

Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 06, 2012, 06:26:27 AM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on January 06, 2012, 06:20:25 AM
Quote from: Tanri on January 06, 2012, 03:08:22 AM
Quote from: Blue Elf on January 06, 2012, 02:02:05 AM
Hmm.. so what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Probably this word order would be prohibited - or we need rule how to interpret it correctly...
I don't think so. There is already a rule about posession - the verb lu should be placed in front of owner (lu oeru X, not oeru lu X), therefore this word order means for me the same as "lu oeru aylì'u frapor".
In other words - the posession dative and recipient dative are recognizable by their position related to lu.

Quote from: Frommerngaru lu fpom srak?
Quote from: Frommer...do you have wellbeing?...

+1 ;) Also: Pori awngaru lu tìkin a nume nì'ul :)

Should we ask again about the a? Lu oeru aylì'u (a) frapor.. as you said and I think it makes a lot of sense.

For a free word order language the rule seems strange, and we need more clarification..

AFAIK Lu X-ru Y = X have Y and all the three can be in any position.

Don't know anything about the another dative... there should be some rules for us to know which one have the thing and which one is to be given something.
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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Lance R. Casey

Regarding the position of lu in possessive constructions, Frommer said this (emphasis mine):

Quote from: K. PawlBut contrary to the general principle of flexible word order, "have" constructions usually begin with the verb.
As we have seen, it's not an inviolable rule, but rather, as a certain Captain would say, more of a guideline. ;)

// Lance R. Casey

Tirea Aean

#12
is it not clear enough that Frommer said:

Quote
But this is a case where word order clearly makes a difference:

edit: also the thing that Lance R. Casey just said.

'Oma Tirea

Sran word order can make a difference.  However that doesn't really explain this:

Quote from: Kemaweyan on January 05, 2012, 09:24:16 PM
what would mean Fraporu lu oeru aylì'u? :-\

Who has words for who?

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ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Tirea Aean

it means an ambiguity solved by context. unless otherwise noted by pawl.

Ftiafpi

I'd second what Tirea Aean said where I'm having trouble picturing a situation where confusion wouldn't be eliminated by context. Also, couldn't fwa also eliminate confusion if someone wanted to be perfectly clear?

Tirea Aean

fwa? how so?


using "a" has been raised but even that can be confusing in some cases.

Ftiafpi

Quote from: Tirea Aean on January 10, 2012, 01:53:47 PM
fwa? how so?


using "a" has been raised but even that can be confusing in some cases.

Could one not say: "Oeru lu fwa lu aylì'u frapor"?

Ah, I see that Ikran Ahiyìk mentioned a as well. I missed that before.

Tirea Aean

what you've said is:


I have this: everyone has words.

Ikran Ahiyìk

I have something to say.
~ I have something which is for everyone.

Lu oeru aylì'u a frapor pum livu.

I may think of something like this, so now the thing underlined can be in any order within the line..



I've thought about this before, but I think Kemaweyan introduce it to us first.. ;)
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


See the new version with fingerings!
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