Author Topic: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!  (Read 2812 times)

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Offline Prrton

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Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« on: April 06, 2010, 01:13:18 pm »
He said it all below, so here you go:

Quote from: Paul Frommer (via e-mail 06 April, 2010)
Frakrr is "always" in the sense of "at all times," as in "He's always late."

"Forever" is different. The "poetic" meaning is "until the end of time," which would be:

tì'i'avay krrä

Stress: tì'I'avay KRRä

'i'a is the verb "end, conclude" (not to be confused with 'ia "lose oneself in a spiritual sense")

tì'i'a is the noun "ending, conclusion"

vay, as you know, is the ADP "up to"

I think { tì'i'avay krrä } has a nice lilt.

Another meaning of "forever" is "constantly" or "incessantly," as in "She's forever grousing about her work." For that you can just use nìlkeftang.

Hope that helps!

To summarize:

   frakrr : "always" / "all the time"

   nìlkeftang : "continuously" / "incessantly" / "without stopping"

   'i'avay krrä : (poetic) "forever" / "'til the end of time"


PS: I am assuming that nìlkeftang is derived from nì.l(u)ke.ftang meaning "without stop" (luke (adp.) = "without"), but I haven't explicitly confirmed that.

PPS: 6 April 6:30 PST, Corrected syllabification/stress on tì'i'avay.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 08:35:12 pm by Prrton »

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2010, 01:25:19 pm »
Good stuff there Prrton. :-)

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2010, 04:35:53 pm »
   nìlkeftang : "continuously" / "incessantly" / "without stopping"

Where did you get the accenting for this?  Given the behavior of other ke- compounds, I'd expect nìlkeftang.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline roger

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 06:45:11 pm »
To summarize:

   'i'avay krrä : (poetic) "forever" / "'til the end of time"

PS: I am assuming that nìlkeftang is derived from nì.l(u)ke.ftang meaning "without stop" (luke (adp.) = "without"), but I haven't explicitly confirmed that.

Isn't the stressed syllable 'i', with both glottal stops, in this one?

I thought maybe < lekeftang, but yours works too.

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 07:29:00 pm »
Quote
Isn't the stressed syllable 'i', with both glottal stops, in this one?

Well it could be, but isn't the rule with VCV to syllabify as V.CV like it is listed above rather than VC.V?

tì'i'avay is CVCVCVCV (y can't end a syllable so it must be a diphthong), so it should be CV.CV.CV.CV, shouldn't it?  This syllabification also gives 'i not 'i'.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 07:58:54 pm »
That's not an absolute.  There are plenty of words that aren't syllabified like that.  And compound words USUALLY keep their syllabification.  (I'm sure there's others, but "tutan" is one notable exception, but that's because the second syllable of "tute" is sort of "lost".)

Some words not syllabified as CVCV...
'engeng
'i'a (That's how it is normally, so no reason to think a prefix and suffix would change a syllable boundary they don't even touch)
tutan
kurakx
kxangangang

And diphthongs can go either way...
fewi
'ewan

Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Prrton

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 08:24:44 pm »
   nìlkeftang : "continuously" / "incessantly" / "without stopping"

Where did you get the accenting for this?  Given the behavior of other ke- compounds, I'd expect nìlkeftang.

It came off a certain sheet.  ;)

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 08:27:07 pm »
It came off a certain sheet.  ;)

I sense things looming...

Offline Prrton

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 08:32:10 pm »
To summarize:

   'i'avay krrä : (poetic) "forever" / "'til the end of time"

PS: I am assuming that nìlkeftang is derived from nì.l(u)ke.ftang meaning "without stop" (luke (adp.) = "without"), but I haven't explicitly confirmed that.

Isn't the stressed syllable 'i', with both glottal stops, in this one?

I thought maybe < lekeftang, but yours works too.

It is 'i'avay krrä in terms of stress. Very good catch. I shouldn't be trying to do HTML without a mouse late at night. BUT, how does one make that pronunciation distinction? Please post an AUDIO response.  ;)

It totally could be <<< nì.le.ke.ftang. Another great point. Have you asked in the past about any other vowel-dropping patterns that seem to relate to this one?

Offline Prrton

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 08:36:46 pm »
It came off a certain sheet.  ;)

I sense things looming...

TO LOOM (v. intransitive.)... Now that's a good word! That should be in the LEP, Stage C.  ;)

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 09:08:54 pm »
Ma omängum, irayo for the counterexamples.

Quote
It came off a certain sheet.

Ma Prrton, any chance of informing us as to a release date for said sheet?  Please?  Little hint? *crickets*
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 09:39:35 pm »
Ma Prrton, any chance of informing us as to a release date for said sheet?  Please?  Little hint? *crickets*

He's talking about a different sheet, I am sorry to report.

There are several patterns of vowels dropping in prefixes when they pile up. Ke-le- regularly becomes just kel-.  I hadn't noticed nì-le- combined before.  And this word messes up a nice, neat accenting rule I had.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2010, 09:56:33 pm »
And diphthongs can go either way...
fewi

That one's fewi.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 10:09:54 pm »
Hrm, I had that wrong in my list, and I have no idea where I got the wrong marking...  Probably a typo on my part to begin with.
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Offline Prrton

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 10:59:19 pm »
Ma omängum, irayo for the counterexamples.

Quote
It came off a certain sheet.

Ma Prrton, any chance of informing us as to a release date for said sheet?  Please?  Little hint? *crickets*

Drips and dribbles, ma tsmuk. I'm afraid that's all I have to offer... but frequently... and HERE. You're in the right place.

Stay tuned.  ;D

Latin wasn't built in a day!  ;)

Offline roger

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2010, 11:38:19 pm »
Some words not syllabified as CVCV...
'engeng
'i'a (That's how it is normally, so no reason to think a prefix and suffix would change a syllable boundary they don't even touch)
tutan
kurakx
kxangangang

It's tutan and kurakx. The others are right. The only C's in a C.V pattern so far are ng and '. (Besides of course the diphthongs.) I suspect this is an English influence, frankly.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 03:31:13 am »
Wow...  I think I need to go over my list again, it seems to be full of typos like those... :(  And to make it worse, I DOUBLE typod tutan...  I had it in my list as tutan but typed it there as tutan while neither was correct.  It seems like I was paying more attention to the nucleus than the consonants when I copied the stresses.  (To be fair half the errors I've now found in my stuff are on l, which can be easily mistaken for being included/not in an underline due to being thin.)

Ok here's one that is verified in Frommer's list that doesn't syllabify CV.CV.  But again it is expected based on the root here.

talioang

(It's worth noting that in this list from Frommer I have found one obvious error in the stress marking because it resulted in a disallowed consonant cluster.  It's entirely possible there could be others which are more subtle.)

As I double check things, the root words which break the CV.CV guides are few and far between.  This includes diphthongs, nearly all of which are syllabified in roots as CV.CV, with "tswayon" a notable exception.  I have also found no root words that syllabify a "ts" as "t.s", every root the digraph appears in it is the affricate, not a t code and s onset.  Of course, something like "zì.sìt.sre" where the ts is from an affix would keep them split across syllables.  (But is there really a difference in pronunciation?  And really, that question goes for most of the ambiguous breaks.)
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Offline roger

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2010, 04:49:05 pm »
Yes, talioang is another, w coda /l/. It's a compound, but yeah, that's another final C in C.V.

Which is the word with the disallowed C cluster?

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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2010, 06:06:01 pm »
Teswotìng is how it is in Frommer's list.  (I let him know about it and he said it was a typo, and that his master list had it correct.)
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Re: Karyuru frakrr irayo si ko!
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2010, 06:13:54 am »
I emailed Frommer about talioang. Unfortunately, he hasn't gotten back to me about that, so we don't know which is primary, which is secondary stress. Prrton, perhaps you could ask for me?

 

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